Invasion of Ukraine • Page 76

Nobody is ignoring the context of the preceding decades - and I can't speak for anyone else but myself - I just think I have a diametrically opposed view of these events that you keep referencing.

 

Because neither the US or most of europe has the will to invade and topple the Russian government right now lol. I think people under estimate what 8 years in Iraq and 20 in Afghanistan did to this country. We'll still sell arms, and we'll still handle small scale stuff we feel like butting our nose into like Haiti, but....with a lot of lefties being skeptical of American involvement abroad and the Trump MAGA America First crowd going full isolationist for racist reasons, on top of the war fatigue from the last 20 years...it'd be very hard to see America backing a push into Russia.

 

Nobody gets to "offer" a "neutral Ukraine" except for Ukraine themselves, if that is something they want to do.

Russia is currently offering a neutral Ukraine pretty fucking hard right now, and they are rejecting that offer just as hard, I would say harder.

 

Again, no, when we are talking about "neutral" meaning not aligned with NATO or Russia, it is NATO and Russia that decide whether Ukraine is neutral. Countries do not have a right to join alliances. It's not a violation of sovereignty to deny a country membership into NATO

 

i mean there should definitely be no US/NATO bases there, or anywhere tbh. as for Crimea, ideally the events of 2014 Maidan never happen which lead to the vote for annexation where Ukraine ceded Russia a very strategic military base. but it's Russia now as it has been in the past . i'm not sure why Russia - Europe energy trade is dead, but Europe needs energy and bad. it makes no sense why they aren't bigger trading partners being right next to each other and being that Russia is part of Europe. of course the US does not want this.

 

It is absurd to think that NATO would or should reject Ukraine's efforts to join just because Russia does not want them to.

 

If it maintains a stable geopolitical status quo, they surely should. I agree they would not even in that case.

 

i never said invade. we've been trying to topple regimes for several decades now without formal invasions.

 

agreed. how is NATO supposed to further aggression against Russia, without Ukraine?

 

I strongly disagree that they should.

 

Oh well yeah that's going to continue regardless. But it has continued on in the background for the last couple decades (and Russia will continue to do it here, i.e. election interference) while also maintaining diplomatic and economic relations with those countries, and I would expect that would need to continue in the aftermath of this war.

 

TBF they've pretty much resisted that up until now.....but now that Russia invaded, I do think it's less likely they reject it than it has been before.

 

If Russia offered to pull back to 2015 borders and end military operations in Ukraine on the condition that Ukraine does not join NATO, you would be against that? That is a pro-war position

 

not Russiagate. come now.

 

Russia clearly tried to interfere in many different ways to get Donald Trump elected. And it's pretty clear there was communications with people on the Trump campaign team. And i imagine we'd know even more if not for all the obstruction.

 

I'm not necessarily against that - I am against saying that NATO and Russia get to decide.

That is one possible outcome that I could see being agreed to in some sort of negotiations / peace talks between Ukraine and Russia. If that is what happened, I would be very happy that the current hostilities had ended, hopefully, with that.

 

Regardless of what Ukraine wants.

NATO and Russia gets to decide who joins them/with them.

 

that's dribble on the bib compared to what the US has done in it's pursuit of being the global hegemon.

 

I mean, who gets to decide is just fact. Discussion of "should" is one thing but...NATO decides who's in NATO

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-ukraine-tried-to-join-nato-and-nato-said-no/

 

Ukraine exhibits very strong little brother energy. I say both sides take the country to the park every now and then, maybe even pass them the ball to feel good.

 

I mean, if we're talking just post-Cold War, part of that is because Russia was a broken country who took a sold decade to rebuild its economy and recover from the USSR collapse. Once they were back on their feet that way, they got right back into the game. But it culminated in 2016, where yes actively trying to get someone elected here because you think it will break your advisory and their relationship with your neighbors is...a pretty bad thing to do! And one that isn't simply hand waved away because "The US did it too"

 

buddy, I wish this was what the US was doing.

 

Doesn't matter. Literally doesn't matter what the US is doing in, say, Haiti, which you're vehemently against, in terms of what Russia is trying to do here. If you're against the US doing it in Haiti, you should be against Russia trying to do it here. Especially since their work seems to be targeted specifically to getting fascists elected here!

 

They did help get Joe Biden elected, so I guess the fascism thing is working out.

 

It matters when the Cold War and US post Cold War foreign policy with Russia is what got us here and we are in the US!

besides, Trump got elected because he embodies what the US is. Russias nudge didn’t do that.