Invasion of Ukraine • Page 75

My personal opinion is that there's going to be a shift - albeit probably behind the scenes - in relations and support if Ukraine, after pushing Russia back to the February 2022 borders for the most part, continues on and pushes for the pre-2014 internationally recognized and legal borders and attempts to take back Crimea. I could be dead wrong on that, but I do think that is the point where especially France & Germany, but also the US, begin to exert influence to try to get Ukraine to want to come to the table for peace talks and negotiations.

Not Poland though - Poland would be cool with Ukraine not stopping until they hit Vladivostok.

 

No. That makes no sense at all.

Russia has an obvious pattern of staging reasons for aggression/escalation, and you're eating it up by allowing the idea to even be plausible.

 

Damn...Russia has a pattern of staging reasons for escalation and aggression? that's crazy lol

 

Russia is crazy like a fox

 

Yes, it does.
Whataboutisms regarding western nations aside.
By not acknowledging this for what it is, you are giving Russia exactly the ambiguity they see as enough for pretext.
If they were under a justified threat, they wouldn't need to conjure up some dirty bomb threat to go nuclear. They are making this up because the truth isn't enough, they are in the wrong, and they know it.

 

The pretext is there. Whether you think it's ethically validates Russia's or any party's actions or not, the 8-30 long history (depending on where you want to start) of how it came to this is exists and it's in the US/NATO/Western favor if we ignore it to continue the aggression.

In general, I think there is no useful analysis in painting your "enemy" or any belligerent as irrational, ignorant, blood thirsty savages as if they were Philadelphia sports fans. We don't do that about the US, despite it being perhaps the most deserving of such characterization. Even then it would not be useful in understanding the details and motives in any given issues, but most importantly, the very necessary solutions to solve this conflict.

 

Ukraine does not have a dirty bomb or any other nuclear weapons of any kind. Suggesting that they do is a complete and total fabrication meant to muddy the waters and provide some sort of cover or at least ambiguity in case Russia wants to introduce nuclear weapons into this conflict. As Hugo pointed out, if Russia were actually under any sort of justified nuclear threat we wouldn't even be having this discussion as they already would have responded.

I don't think they are irrational or bloodthirsty in the sense that they are invading simply out of a love of killing and raping - everyone has reasons - but the fact that they are seriously talking about using nuclear weapons on a non-nuclear state because they failed in their land-grab as their military was not up to the task is pretty fucking barbaric.

 

I do not see Russia as irrational. Fabricating and invading is a strategy that has produced great results for Russia over the last ten years alone, and for other nations over the centuries.

When they are cruel, generally speaking, it is a tactic. It's a form of terrorism and attempted subjugation.

I do think, as rational as Russia is, they are getting backed into a corner, militarily and in terms of global standing. And since it's not overseas, they aren't really as geographically removed from it as the US is from Afghanistan or Vietnam, and Putin won't be voted out or bow to other forms of domestic pressure.

They are running out of options and defeat is unacceptable to them. Right now it's getting closer and closer to holding the world hostage with an explosive vest. Retaliation will no longer be able to be in measure. Only Russia can unfuck this by getting out. Normalizing annexation (not to even mention overlooking all of these large scale crimes against humanity) isn't a possible compromise, it's too detached from reality. So we are fucked.

 

This is where I'm at as well. Knowing annexation isn't acceptable, what else could the West offer Putin to get him to withdraw his forces is the main question to figure out

 

Gee whiz, if only anyone had been saying in February that backing a nuclear power into a military and geopolitical corner is a good way to start a nuclear war

 

Russia is backed into a corner because their army has been shown to be far less effective than anyone thought and they have failed in their attempt to invade their much smaller and less powerful neighbor...? That is nonsense. They are not backed into any type of corner. They can stop invading any time they decide.

 

You and the guy who liked this post just liked Hugo's post where he said they were backed into a corner lol

 

the hell are we doing lol

 

the whole corner not corner thing really just proves the pro-war side either ignores or just does not care about that 8-30 years of context i keep mentioning in vain on here. Russia invading created a tabula rasa and the only option is to support the war effort that got us here in the first place.

 

war is peace

 

say Russia loses and US/Western influence is solidified over Ukraine with whatever territory you'd like or... an alternative timeline where Ukraine "peaceably" falls into US/Western orbit, what happens to Russia or do things just stop there?

 

Things should stop there. At which point you have a diplomatic reset with Russia and try to re-forge trade and economic ties. It obviously won't be easy to do, especially assuming Putin remains in power, but it's what should be done.

 

But yeah again everyone here in this thread knows the basics on the last 8-30 years. No one thinks it justifies invading Ukraine. I don't think that's a hard to understand stance.

 

things shouldn't even be there, so why would it even stop? especially if you practically got checkmate. it's unrealistic and that's why i say people are ignoring the past decades of history.

 

literally 0 people with power in US foreign policy agree with this lol

 

The US famously loves to "stop there"

 

neutral Ukraine, the halt of NATO expansion, trying not to interfere with Russia-Europe energy trade. just some things that were the cause of this war.

 

the US foreign policy will shift to edging, in which it teases itself right at the tip while not trying to burst and go over.

 

Tom Delonge got a lot of shit for leaving blink 182 to "hunt aliens" but he needed the cover for his black ops missions to create the conditions for US policy to adopt the foreign policy after which their new single is named

 

When it comes to neutral Ukraine, do you mean no US/NATO bases? Or other things? I assume the West would entertain these ideas, if Putin was willing to remove all his troops from Ukraine, including Crimea and the Donbas. Then again, the Russia to Europe energy trade is pretty much dead for good, so that won’t help things