General Politics Discussion VII [ARCHIVED] • Page 986

Doesn't that go to the argument that they feel they have to be that way because the people that are more likely to vote right now also believe those things? If the electorate doesn't change, the politicians will continue to pander to the groups that do.

 

lmao “Investigative journalist”

 

If you're talking to a person who thinks we need far more police presence, I seriously doubt their amenability to even modest reforms

Can you rephrase this because I've read it through three times now and either it's worded weirdly or something about it is just not vibing with my brain right now

 

I think this doesn't take into account that a lot of people think people like Deray and Obama are far more radical left than they are. I have done a lot of research on all this, and I think those 8 to 10 things are a good starting vector for the kinda people I know, including my parents and lib friends. Others may have different experiences or friends, but I know five years ago I would have been mocked for bringing up some of this stuff and I finally have an in to talk about police brutality and the start of accountability. It's not where I want to end up, but I think the visibility has allowed me an angle I wouldn't have had otherwise so I'm thankful for that.

 

Yeah, it's really fucking hard, and a basic trust and desire for cops to keep people safe is engrained in a lot of people's brains, which is why I'm arguing that even getting them to talk to me about something like this 8cantwait shit is some progress! I have friends I've known since high-school that are full on Karens and after this week I've had some ask me about bail funds to donate to.

 

I feel like we may just be talking about different kinds of people or something. Right now I am most concerned about people who otherwise don't care, but who do care A LOT right now -- people who don't know much about problems with the police but within the past two weeks have recognized that there are serious problems that must be addressed. I think that that makes up an extremely significant portion of Americans right now, including those who are most upset about the riots. I really doubt even the 8CantWait stuff would get much if any traction with the people who will forever excuse all cop activity

 

You mentioned the Dem party feels obligated to stick with the “tough on crime” messaging (which I agree with), and I’m pointing out that part of the reason why they do is that for years that’s what the majority of the electorate wanted to hear. They won’t change that as an overall party if the people that believe otherwise aren’t going to vote. I know it’ll piss people off here to point that out but at the end of the day 99% of these politicians only care about one thing, and that’s keeping their jobs. If they realize that continuing to push “tough on crime” nonsense will cause them to lose, they’ll change their tune fast.

 

thread

 

This is, unfortunately, true. Cause those suburb voters are basically how they won the house in 18 and probably the best path to victory in 2020. They need those votes. Which is why the GOP and Trump is pushing the weak on crime/L&O angle right now. Given that, that's why I think using some of these easy to digest proposals are a good way to work our way into the suburbs to start weakening the L&O clam on their minds and seeing that there's a future with a completely reimagined structure for policing divorced from white supremacy (basically, the thread I linked earlier).

 

The reason I doubt they will ever change their tune fast like that is because their funding is just as (if not more) important to keeping their jobs as voters are, and those donors are inherently *very* interested in being about law and order, because if not then they risk no longer being (as) wealthy. At this point, if Obama is pushing something, then my immediate red flag is "this is largely something to appease those donors who want stability but never significant change." I don't know how to get Dems to go beyond that except applying enough pressure to make them feel like they are stuck between a rock and hard place, with "8CantWait" type of reforms on the conservative side of things. You can say that that's something to be resolved at the voting booth but I think this past week has shown that it can happen any time.

 

I'm talking about the 30-55 age probably white voter that for their entire life has been told cops are good and is starting to see the cracks in the facade (maybe even with capitalism itself!). These are not only prime voters, but the exact kind of people that if they shift even a little, I think we can see a tidal wave.

Latest polls have 58% of americans supporting using the military to help police these protests. I think there's a way to talk to that 58% and that some of it starts with centrist dem bullshit. I think that from my own experiences of slowly working more leftists ideas into the heads of people that like Wine Caves. So, maybe we are talking about different groups, but that's why I think there are vectors for talking to people we know, friends, etc., that may include basic Obama talk, cause people like Obama, and people like Joe Biden, to my chagrin, but I have had success starting there.

 

priorities

 

More context

 

What the fuck

well in that case, I take back my like from the previous post

 

Lol what goons

 

One of my biggest general concerns about things like this is simply pitching things to people in a way that reinforces the idea of everything being somewhere along a simple “liberal-conservative” spectrum.

For example, moderate policy reforms being closer to the middle, and outright budget cuts at the furthest end. To me that just implies that going after money is more “radical” in some way, when in reality it is simply a *different* kind of path altogether. The perception of it as radical makes people think “well I’m *not* radical, so I don’t know about this” even if they do recognize the same idea applied in different areas as totally centrist. Like I think if you can overcome the initial challenge of convincing someone of the basic fact that serious police reform needs to happen, that many if not most people would be able to recognize on a practical level that a very effective ways to keep the cops (or anyone) on their toes is to threaten to go after their money. That that’s not a liberal or conservative idea, it’s just how politics is played in the real world.

As far as anecdotes go, my parents are not particularly politically-minded people and strongly dislike both parties. They’re quite well off but not “donor” level wealthy by any means, so in my head closer to the kind of middle class suburban voter than anything else. My dad seems to care most about relative fiscal conservatism, and my mom is pretty socially liberal but she been an admin worker for the IL state police for like 30 years. Talking to them - two people who do not like politics or politicians at all - they generally seem far more swayed by talking about politics in a more realpolitik way, because they recognize that that’s how it works in practice anyway. I don’t think they would be particularly swayed by high-minded rhetoric or calls for decency, because as much as they want there to be less partisanship in politics, they can recognize bullshit fairly easily. When I talk candidly to them about ways I think would help hold police accountable, I think they generally agree with the notion of it being common sensical and not at all an extreme or radical solution to current problems, because again, that’s just how politics generally works

 

Bad apples I guess

 

This also applies to actual leftist shit imo. Like no leftist should ever be using Marxist jargon when trying to convince a non-leftist of something. If you just talk in a very simple, explicit way, it is so obviously correct in a way that many if not most people can understand. The worst thing you can do is make your ideas sound abstract or convoluted. I think Killer Mike this past week has been a golden example of that

 

Time to do the same, Jason.

 

Bari Weiss hasn’t tweeted or retweeted since yesterday before she got called out on twitter by her coworkers heh