Knives Out (Rian Johnson, November 27th, 2019) Movie • Page 23

Finally saw this and loved it. Give me more!

 

Wow

 

probz gonna rent this tonight

 

Anybody know if Rian has mentioned if this is a reference at all?

 

He mentions it as a direct reference at the end of this interview podcast. Starting at the 50min mark to be exact.

Rian Johnson Goes Deep on 'Knives Out' [/Filmcast Interview]

 

My man!

That's awesome! One of my favorite books growing up and the first thing I thought of once I heard the name Thrombey.

 

To anyone who's seen it at least once, where do you land on Harlan? Do you think he's a kind person, at least as kind as the movie seems to portray him?

 

Yes...

Have people come away from the movie thinking he was bad in some way?

 

I can see how people could see him as an enabler for most of his entire families lives and that could cause people to see him as not the greatest. He definitely came around in the end though

 

I mean, labeling him as an enabler is not entirely inaccurate but would be be vastly reductionistic. It would be ignoring a lot, though we only see such a small part of his life. What father wouldn’t support his children? It’s obvious it came from a good place. And family has a funny way of being able to create a desire to keep giving second chances to.

I think my reaction to what you said is that “enabler” has such a hugely negative connotation to me.

 

I think Harlan even refers to himself as an enabler in one of the flashbacks, right?

 

I get what your saying for sure, I just can also see how some may have a different reaction to him. It's kinda crazy how complex of a character he is with such little actual screentime.

Can't remember exactly if he says it explicitly, I believe he at least alludes to it though.

 

Maybe I’m just bringing too much baggage to the word. He does enable them.

 

Hmmm...Does saying he's an enabler encapsulate all of it though? My initial impression is he kinda had that conservative and white liberal baby boomer ethics mentality of "who can win the contest of being the best boomer" with how he treated his family. Was some of the political subtext in the movie about this? A game of moral superiority lorded over them from second one maybe? Clearly he won, but given how literally EVERYONE in the man's orbit except Marta and Fran ended up being garbage, does make you wonder what he was like to people who spent the most time around him? He even said he was just like Ransom when he was his age. Most of the ethical leverage he has over them seems to be about him earning what he got, and fair enough, but did they ever have a chance, growing up in his shadow? Is the film trying to say something about how horrible he was as a parent/person, or that simply not having a real job + growing up in wealth will inherently warp people that badly?

And even though it's more than reasonable to withhold some of their inheritance from them, did the choice to give every cent of it to Marta kinda not feel like both a power move/one last twist of the knife in their gut and also the daddy of all virtue signals? An act of some genuine compassion for her, sure, but also maybe a gesture based in the same off-kilter power dynamics we see play out between her and the rest of his family (those uncomfortable weird ownership vibes they have in relation to Marta)?

The whole dynamic between Harlan and the rest of the Thrombeys kinda reminds me of this thing I read about what power is: 1. get there first, 2. forgive yourself for any unethical deeds you committed along the way, 3. establish laws of the land that prohibit others from being forgiven for similarl unethical acts in attempting to obtain the same power you have. All the games he played with everyone around him, closing the drawbridge behind him, etc.

But the events around his death add more weight to everything and make you feel that ultimately he really did have a change of heart in addition to any other motives in the back of his mind. So even if he's not as kind a person as the movie on the surface wants you to think he is, unlike the rest of the Thrombeys he does seem to be morally gray and probably earned a redemption. So in the end he's sympathetic, but on rewatches I wonder if how good/bad Harlan is might also be more complicated than what's often being discussed is all. /ramble

 

There’s nothing to suggest that Harlan was a bad person, either during the movie or before it. The Thrombys were all bad because of their entitlement, which Harlan did nothing to put in check until the night he died. He wasn’t creating some game of moral superiority to make his kids act up, he was explicitly cutting them off and giving it all to Marta, who he actually liked. He didn’t say “do this or you get nothing,” he said “it’s too late, you’ve abused my trust and goodwill towards you one too many times.” There’s nothing to suggest that Harlan was a vindictive person whatsoever or that he gave his inheritance to Marta out of spite for them.

“Change of heart” what? What change of heart? What was he like prior to his death? You don’t know, and are inferring that he must have been bad because his kids are bad. But that’s a huge leap to make when there’s absolutely no other evidence to back it up, and all the evidence of what we do know: that Marta always liked him, that he supported his family and their pursuits as much as possible, and that he refused to license out his novels for film adaptations despite how much money he would make from it.

 

Well he said he was like Ransom when he was his age. I dunno, that seems pretty revealing as far as who he was when he was younger. Also, hate and entitlement as we see from his family isn't an inherit trait, as far as anyone knows. They learned it from somewhere. I feel like there's a bit more evidence in the film suggesting he was like them when younger, but ended up reflecting on it later in life and became more compassionate. Though a lot of it's probably up to interpretation. I just gotta wonder... given the clues in the story about his past and parenting style and given how the film is fairly nuanced and psychological with it's character development, it might be a bit reductive of the truth to say he's a beautiful person given the world of toxicity and power he lived in and fermented.

 

He didn’t at all explain *how* he was like Ransom. They are both clearly highly intelligent, and nowhere did I say he was a “beautiful” person.

“They learned it from somewhere” - yes? That’s made explicit in the movie? Harlan blames himself for his family ending up how they did. They are entitled because they grew up with massive wealth without ever having to sacrifice or work for it. To them, that’s the baseline. You don’t need a particularly bad parent to *make* you bad when all the other factors are pushing you that way in the first place.

I’m not saying Harlan was a saint or whatever, I’m saying that you don’t actually know and the film gives you barely anything to infer what you’re trying to infer and all the reason to believe the opposite. You said he’s trying to play some game with them, even though it’s clear that he is *not* playing any sort of game with them. You talk about him having a change of heart, but again there is nothing to suggest that he was a particularly bad parent or even person in general. You’re just taking the fact that his kids suck and reverse-engineering that into inferring that he must have sucked too, even though the movie makes it very explicit why the kids suck: because he wasn’t harsh *enough* on them when he should have been.

 

Well considering Ransom is a piece of shit, is any explanation necessary? His character is a manipulative, entitled prick who treats people terribly. The only difference seems to be that Harlan was able to put that towards amassing a fortune and never killed anyone and became reflective of his behavior later in life.

The whole "growing up in wealth will make you an inherently bad person" thing just seems like a small part of it to me considering how there are plenty of people in real life who grow up in wealth and aren't terrible people, and how EVERYONE raised under his roof ended up being terrible. Is the film suggesting that not having a job and growing up around money inherently makes someone a bad person? I dunno, most rich and/or dysfunctional families usually have at least one or two people who aren't a fuckup. What would be your explaination for this? You don't think the film is telling the audience something about his behavior and family values?

Of course a lot of this isn't stated explicitly in the film, but maybe it's implied? His lifestyle, environment, family, the tidbit about being like Ransom when younger, and the film's ending definitely mentions that he played mindgames with people around him.

One of the moral lessons revealed at the end is that Marta never ended up being corrupted because she never played that game. When the game itself is toxic, not playing it at all is the morally sound move. This aspect of Harlan's character, of baiting everyone in his circle to engage in that kind of power-struggle mindgame reminds me a lot of how wealthy white liberal and conservative baby boomers interact with the world.

The film seems to suggest that to some extent, his family were all victims of this, though part of the entertainment and comedy of everything is how they went through life never questioning it or trying to be better people and instead went ALL IN with that game, not knowing it's rigged to fuck everyone over to begin with.

Would you say a big part of what makes Harlan more sympathetic is that he seems to be a product of his time and probably wasn't aware of the logical conclusion of all of that until later in life, where he became more regretful and remorseful, making it possible to be compassionate to Marta? The film seems to invite audiences to let him off the hook if they want, though it also might be suggesting things are more complicated as you read into it more. At least I think so, maybe there's some stuff I missed on those viewings which debunks this.

 

Again, the film never suggests that he plays moral authority mind games with the family. He had puzzle games with Jamie Lee Curtis that were harmless fun. He didn’t bait anyone. The exact opposite actually: he all confronted them directly and told them explicitly what he was going to do. When he thought he was going to die, he did his best to manufacture a scenario in which Marta would not be blamed for the murder. It wasn’t to create an elaborate game for everyone to solve and battle over. Marta did not beat Harlan’s game, she beat Ransom’s.

You’re just reaching incredibly hard tbh. Harlan is a product of his time? Where is this addressed in even the slightest extent? Where was it suggested that he wasn’t compassionate to his family? It wasn’t. None of the characters ever talk bad about him or bemoan how he raised them. Again, the film is very explicit in conveying that Harlan’s mistake was coddling and enabling the family for so long.

 

No, not Ransom's scheme, but the game mentioned by Blanc at the end of the movie (which could've been what dog-trained Ransom to be good at manipulation in the first place). It's described in detail at least a couple times in the film.

Eh, the movie doesn't outright say it, but it also doesn't outright say that it's satirizing goopheads with Joni or white feminism with the Meg but it doesn't take a social scientist to know that's who they are and why we're laughing at those characters. So yeah, it's an interpretation, via reading into the behaviors of who's on screen. That's why it's not hard to draw parallels between Harlan and some known public figures or people encountered in life based on what the film implies via his behavior and clues found throughout the story. It isn't confirmed explicitly because it doesn't matter too much to the events unfolding onscreen, but there's a character study layer to it that's still there for anyone who wants to watch it. But since the details of his past are left somewhat vague it's also true that either of us could be right or wrong to some extent.

 

a good film

 

haha my mom texted me about the movie, she’s glad the thrombeys were disinherited