Accountability in Music • Page 320

So asking questions = spewing bullshit? Does that not speak on how these shitshows are allowed to happen? When respectfully asking questions is interpreted as 'spewing bullshit", that's no foundation for any discourse.

Case in point: me asking what exactly the claim is = complaining about people

 

Another case in point. I'm in the outtribe because I have a different opinion. Be mean as you want to me! After all - I deserve it by trying to have an actual discussion

 

Yeah this is not the time or place for that and is 100% not the sort of thing I ever want to go to bat for.

 

Just report/block them. Their post history suggests that it's a troll account/alt for someone in here... stirred up a bunch of ish in the Pinegrove thread in February and has been inactive since.

 

The claim is that Pinegrove guy used his platform as a relatively popular musician to coerce MORE THAN THE ONE FAN HE ALREADY ADMITED TO COERCING into sleeping with him, throw in some buying alcohol for minors for garnish.

But that was all readily apparent from the very post you quoted. I know this becuase it is where I got that info. So that leads people to beleive YOU are what people are talking about when they bring up people on the site who are dismissive and bad faith actors.

If you don't want to be that guy, read posts completely and thoroughly before replying to a post that says what happened with "what happened?"

 

Did that person claim to be coerced? I genuinely don't see how you can derive abuse from that statement as it was presented. Anyways, peace out y'all, cannot have a convo without getting mean. When the few prior pages are wondering why conversations here devolve into barking, look at these exchanges.

P.s. Please tell me you see the irony in calling me dismissive when you look at the surrounding posts.

 

You have 40 posts in the Pinegrove thread and almost all of them are some variations of this exact argument; it's already been explained to you multiple times. This is not the same situation, and you know it. To present yourself here as a good faith actor is just not true.

 

Yes, so sorry. People being aware of your posting history must be so awful. How dare they remember the way you have acted in the past and engage based on that info.

 

Thanks for providing this. I appreciate you digging through all of that. What steps do we think need to be taken for the accountability in that situation? Seems like a skeevy thing to do.

 

No joke, how have I acted other than engaging in respectful discussion? You're implying that I have a posting history of insulting people, name-calling and trolling. Never once did I do any of that.

I've been on the receiving end of all of those while I was at the time, genuinely asking questions to better understand the situation. Trying to respectfully illustrate why harmful and self-serving arguments are bad does not make me a troll.

 

It’s been a long and exhausting day but I wanted to try to find something that could more eloquently describe why it rubs me the wrong way to see so much emphasis be put on “being civil” “being nice” “respectfully illustrating”.
Even after being pointed out that tone policing is happening, people are even saying things like “I know this will just be called tone policing but...”
I understand the desire to have a ‘productive’ conversation, but...

It’s a widely acknowledged thing that your ability to be calm in a debate is a direct result of privilege.

With my limited spoons and time, I found this article. I know it isn’t an exact one-for-one fit for what’s going on here, but MANY of the same themes are prevalent. Please take the time to read it and actually sit with it and try to understand the ways some parts of this conversation could be taken.

4 Reasons Demanding 'Objectivity' in Social Justice Debates Can Be Oppressive

The whole thing is good but point 3 is especially relevant. Please don’t get hung up on some of the language being slightly different- a lot of the framework is the same.

 

Not at all for me to say.

 

I’m flattered that you thought of me, not sure if I’m the right person for the job though! Living in a different time zone means that I missed all the discussion that happened last night, even with me awake until 2am. Plus, there’d be a major conflict of interest if I had to deal with you as a moderator, seeing as you’re one of my best friends on & off this website!

 

My brain was like "....bitch now"? Tattoo For a sec. Oop.

Oh am I not reading the tension of the room rn

 

I know the conversation from yesterday has pretty much died down, but I want to ask what we can all do better to keep this a safe, healthy, and productive place. I know the idea came up several times to keep this thread exclusively for news and updates about allegations/abuse and to relegate any other discussion to individual band threads. Is that something we should pursue?

 

As a non-insider on the scene (if you will), I’d rather not have the thread scattered across different threads.

It’s been an invaluable resource: a lot of times there’s no other way I would have heard about bad and sometimes horrible decisions that artists I support make.

What’s more, it’s made me a lot more aware—and therefore critical of—the pedestals that artists are placed on, and the inordinate amount of power over others that gives them.

And I’ve said this once before, I am seriously grateful to the Women in here who take time out of their day to explain important issues to others. Reading your replies, I think/hope, has helped me learn a great deal.

Anyways FYI there is someone out here listening (even if I don’t chime in often) and thinks this thread, for all its ups and down, can be and often is a valuable resource to have around.

My two cents for what it’s worth.

 

Wherever this threads goes, I’ve learned a lot from it. I’ve said some super shitty stuff here and “in real life” that I regret and this is one of the threads I actively think about and feel I’ve learned from. I hope it continues to be a resource for people like me who needed a reality check and learn.

 

I like this thread having discussion but I also missed whatever happened a few pages back so my opinion might not mean much! There seems to be disagreement on this, but for the most part I think the majority of users in this thread come from good faith and wanting to discuss, and I like hearing from the other women who are more involved in the scene than myself. The thought of having to go into the individual band threads to read discourse and then contend with a bunch of defensive rando fans of the artist is.... Unpleasant to me lol but I'd survive either way

 

I think people were just saying that posts that are along the lines of “I miss this band and am having a hard time putting them to rest” belong in the thread of the band, and not this kind of thread.

But maybe I should just speak for myself because that’s what *I* was saying lol

Edited to add: however I also think a thread that was designed for us to work through our feelings (like a kind of support group thread) would be the better alternative to making this thread about ourselves. Anytime someone says something about how accusations affect them, people (rightfully) respond that this is about the victim. So maybe this thread should be focused on the artist, the accusations, and the apology/reparations/accountability (lol dreaming big here). And maybe we make another thread that *is* for us to “make about ourselves” and focuses on sorting through our own feelings about it.

I dunno. Probably not a perfect suggestion but idk

 

Honestly as a 21 year old white dude, I’ve learned a lot from this thread and it’s helped me understand why accountability is so important. I don’t post much in here but I read almost every post because I know accountability is so damn important. So to the users who are constantly updating this thread and letting people know what’s going on in the scene or just music in general, THANK YOU.

 

If only every man in the music scene was Frank Carter

 

love frank carter. seeing gallows in '07 back when he used to do the set from the middle of the pit was *the* moment I connected with punk,etc. I remember him personally pushing away those big shirtless hardcore dudes so smaller people could have fun and grab the mic, and that was really cool to me. that was also probably the first time I was in a pit where there were as many women as men, and it was overall just a super cool experience and it's awesome to watch him keep doing stuff like that on a 1000x bigger scale

 

fuck tool btw.

May have gotten a friend who never heard about that stuff re evaluate everything he thought about them now. So that's positive.

 

I've struggled with this. A lot.

I'm gonna be real - I don't know how to respond to a lot of this. Because as much as I agree there has been a lot of toxic direct-to-anger speech in these threads from people who have a lot of privilege which I wish would change, I also don't see how to differentiate that from firm correctional speech from people like myself/tone policing based on what has been said here. I will die on the hill that if you give privileged people an out with the way you address a topic, they'll take it. If not doing that makes my approach toxic, then I don't belong here. And fine, maybe thats true.

I'm sure there are survivors made uncomfortable by the discourse. I'm sorry for that, and they should be heard. But. There are also survivors made uncomfortable by what's happened in here for the past few pages, myself included. If the people I'm asked to consider when discussing these issues are first and foremost folks who need their hands held while they figure out how to deal with liking bands with abusers in them, I just have no interest. I have those same struggles. I'm not gonna name the bands because I don't need anyone to tell me it's oh-fucking-kay that those bands still matter to me. My struggle isn't as important as the people it might hurt. I agree that there should be a place for people to explore that grief - I'd even participate - but I'm not interested if the purpose is to tell people they shouldn't experience guilt regarding that. It isn't realistic. (And I don't care what people intended for us to be discussing here. This is the discourse I've seen that's actually HAPPENED. I also work 100x harder than I want to in order to give the benefit of the doubt and to be rational/non-emotional/explain things yet my posts still easily fall under the "toxic" parameters I've seen discussed here.)

So, I guess my thesis here is I don't know. You can't please everyone. People learn when they're ready to. My tone won't change that. I am a very rational person who prioritizes what works over what feels good, every time. I'm not perfect, and I slip up. I also acknowledge nobody called me out here (edit 2: I'm saying this bc I got name-dropped more than once, however), but when we're dealing with emotional trauma we're no longer dealing with rationality. We're in the realm of feelings. And honestly this has just made me feel like nothing I do here actually matters. So if what I do is toxic and unwanted, it and I will go. I'll never stop doing this work. It's part of me. But I have my own mental health to consider and forgoing nuance in the other extreme doesn't help either - and with all due respect, that's a lot of what's happened here.

There's a fine line between asking for multi-faceted conversations and tone-policing and most of y'all didn't find it, and nobody pays me to be here.

Sincerely,

Someone who was privy to both conversations.

Edit; I'll check in next week. Idk what'll happen after that but I'm not gonna cut my nose off to spite my face. I'm too old for this.

 

If this is out of line I’ll delete it but I hope your tone never changes. You have been an inspiration countless times.