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Accountability in Music • Page 316

Discussion in 'Music Forum' started by OhTheWater, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. DarkHotline

    Stuck In Evil Mode For 31 Days Prestigious

    If someone is gonna come in here and admit they were wrong, I’ll back them up. We’re not infallible and that’s taking a good step.
     
  2. Kiana

    Goddamn, man child Prestigious

    I know this isn't accountability in the sense that's usually discussed in this thread, but lana del Rey talking about not being more liberal than Republican and being in the middle is distressing. She's made some sus comments about feminism in the past but I thought with her new songs she was showing growth and learning in her views. It's disappointing and has tainted the album release for me. I'm still gonna listen and go to her show but I rly thought she had changed. Maybe she's still learning idk, just disappointed. With the way things are idek how someone can be in the middle. It is such a privileged stance to afford to be able to have.
     
  3. leerkat

    relentlessly nosy bastard

    What I’ve seen essentially is the conversation being derailed from “the music media have enabled the return of this person who has used the language accountability to absolve himself without actually being held accountable. This is despicable” to “Please don’t be mean about enabling behaviour, because I somehow feel targetted for still listening to the music even though nobody was talking about that or even mentioning that”. Well, if the shoe fits, then put it on, but please just take a good long hard look at yourselves. All I see is people who are not at peace with themselves and their decisions acting persecuted and making everything about themselves for doing something we have determined time and time again is pretty fucking harmless. Nobody cares you listen to pinegrove. Just be quiet about it when we’re talking about how ESH doesn’t deserve a platform. Get a group chat, idk. All I see here is insecure children spending 2 pages congratulating themselves about how civil they’re making the debate.

    Yall aren’t discussing accountability. Yall are discussing respectability politics.
    It’s bad faith arguments, lack of effort (I’ve explained the situation countless times to the very people in this thread), and just frankly a lack of a spine i see on this thread. Grown adults who truly feel like art is more important than people. This is why music is corrupt, this is why I don’t want anything to do with it anymore. Even the most progressive of discourse is constantly trying to sever itself from reality, constantly splitting hairs about a system that does not work, constantly running away from the difficult recognisation that a high level of cognitive dissonance is necessary to be in this scene, instead completely insecure about their own choices, their own morality, their own frustrations, and the consequences of this whole reality. Things can’t be the same as they used to be. You can’t talk about Brand New in this space. Find a different place.

    My goal here is not to make people comfortable, it’s the opposite. In life, I’m always very concerned with being nice. I’m an overempathetic person, in fact. I can’t even watch opposing fans of my team be upset on TV. But in the realm of accountability, I do not give a shit about being nice. I want to make people uncomfortable. It’s the only thing that forces people to think about themselves. If me dunking on obvious enabling behaviours makes you feel targetted, makes you feel defensive, then I’ve done my job.

    In the end it’s just a bunch of pop rock songs, my god. Isn’t life about so much more than that? People will call this post unnecessary, or mean, or agressive. Let them. It’ll probably give a reality check to at least one person a few months down the road, though.

    Meanwhile this thread will go around in circles, walking around something none of us wants to admit : the system is broken. Accountability in the sense of rehabilitation within the community is near-impossible in our context. Ostracisation, for now, is the answer. Let ESH go bag groceries. Let jesse lacey never show his face at a show again. There are other hobbies. There are other things. You don’t owe a platform or a place in this incredibly small, insignificant community to people who have abused it. The discussion shouldn’t be how to bring ex-abusers back ; 99% won’t actually do the appropriate work in our current system that favours abusers. The discussion should be how to hold them even accountable - the first step, long before rehab - which they already never are.

    The discussion on this thread will remain toxic until people here acknowledge this fatal flaw. People have to be angry. People have to be irreverent. I want to see people making others understand that good intentions aren’t enough.

    Think.
    I will not say this again. I think this is a lost cause. But you guys don’t. You guys haven’t lost the passion for this art or the want to go to shows or the love for this music. I respect that. But when I look at this scene, and at this thread, I see the reason why I had to give all that up. Pretense. Disingenuity. Deformed language. Dishonesty. A gigantic bad faith argument.

    This will keep driving people away. But it won’t be the abusers who go, as always. They stay. They learn the language. They fester.

    Just, think.
     
  4. Thank you


    I hope you’re doing well :heart:
     
  5. ImAMetaphor

    one with the riverbed Prestigious

    Not really down with being called an immature child for trying to discuss emotionally distressing feelings on a public forum dedicated to discussing emotionally distressing issues so I’m just gonna bounce.
     
    FTank and DrAlanGrant like this.
  6. CoffeeEyes17

    Reclusive-aggressive Prestigious

    But this is kinda what @leerkat and others are talking about, if you read those posts and this is all you take from it that’s kinda part of the problem, right? Civility is important, sure, but stagnation is a big issue for the entire scene.
     
  7. ImAMetaphor

    one with the riverbed Prestigious

    This is absolutely not all I take from it. If you’ve read my posts in this thread over the past 24 hours and since I began posting here, that much would be obvious. Nothing about the conversation here has been promoting stagnation, and it’s insulting to suggest as much. Most of us are genuinely on the same side. I do not want ESH or JL to come back. I do not believe they deserve a platform. I do believe survivors need to be centered in discussions about accountability. The fact that Leerkat or anyone could read my posts and others’ and insinuate that any of that is untrue is what I take issue with. We weren’t praising Brand New. We were talking about the fallout. If that’s a problem, I don’t know what else to say.
     
  8. supernovagirl

    Poetic and noble land mermaid

    Holy mother of missing the goddamn point.
     
  9. ImAMetaphor

    one with the riverbed Prestigious

    How, exactly? Did you read my response to CoffeeEyes? I agree with SO much of Leerkat’s post. What I’m not okay with is name-calling In the wake of an incredibly helpful discussion for me and others over the past 24 hours. Fuck that.
     
  10. Anthony_

    A (Cancelled) Dork Prestigious

    not going to tag leerkat because idk if they want to be brought back into this
     
  11. supernovagirl

    Poetic and noble land mermaid

    Yeah I’m not engaging with you over it bc it’s pointless. Your lack of self awareness is astounding. You’re so much exactly like what others are calling out- getting so defensive (about being childish..which is ironic bc you’re acting childish!!) without even remotely being willing to step back and look at the bigger picture and truly listen to what others are saying. And I’m truly not talking about any of your posts other than the last 2.
     
  12. ImAMetaphor

    one with the riverbed Prestigious

    I’m trying to listen. I’m trying to share my perspective. I think this comes down to the fact that some people believe the conversation yesterday was helpful and others don’t. I don’t know what to do about that. I’m not trying to be obtuse about this, but I straight up do not know what to do when a conflict like this arises. This level of hostility between users on this site (and yes, of course I’m guilty of it as well) is like a daily thing at this point and it’s just exhausting. I want to talk to everyone about this stuff, because I believe it’s vital. I just don’t know what to do when certain conversations are helpful for some and harmful for others.
     
  13. supernovagirl

    Poetic and noble land mermaid

    Okay also you have edited this post and possibly others sooo.
    If you agreed with SO much of leerkats post and all you responded was “wah this one line out of 3 fucking paragraphs of necessary and important discourse hurt my feelings so BYE!” And you LITERALLY can’t see how that’s childish af??? Like?????????? I don’t have words rn. Honestly.
     
  14. ImAMetaphor

    one with the riverbed Prestigious

    If the answer is to keep this thread entirely and utterly dedicated to discussing the allegations themselves as they arise, I can handle that. The conversation yesterday flowed to a different aspect of the topic of accountability, and I still believe a lot of people benefitted from it. I understand that others didn’t.
     
  15. ImAMetaphor

    one with the riverbed Prestigious

    I edited my posts because it’s 9 in the morning and I’m also trying to do homework. We’ve been having necessary and important discourse for 24 hours. I don’t think this interaction is beneficial to either of us.

    I edited this post, too, because I thought of something else I want to say.
     
  16. ImAMetaphor

    one with the riverbed Prestigious

    I apologize for making the post where I threatened to leave. Leerkat’s post was the first thing I saw this morning, and my response was misguided and hasty. I’m not gonna back down from the idea that there has been great discussion in here over the past 24 hours, though.
     
  17. BoldTitan

    Trusted

    Thinking it's possible to have a nuanced discussion on the fallout of a situation and thinking abusers should not have a platform and wanting the best for the victims are not mutually exclusive.

    We all want the same thing ultimately and are on the same side. The people you claim to hate are a tiny little minority of users on the site. Just about every regular user I have seen on this site agree that people like Jesse shouldn't have a platform or be defended. You only see the occasional ghost avatar new user making some dumb ass statements. The people here are just reckoning with what it means to have an idol or favorite band turn into a monster. That's a human process to go through. They aren't holding them up on a pedestal.

    That isn't the issue. The issue is the toxic behavior and harrassing that occurs when someone has even a fraction of a difference in opinion surrounding how they personally deal with situations of abuse. Nobody in this thread is saying that they support the abusers and want them to have a platform again. There is a LOT of projecting and performative anger going on.

    Leerkat was banned from the Pinegrove thread for toxic behavior (I'm not sure if it was for harrassing or targeting, but it was something to that effect) and then was unbanned because I assume the stance they were taking. It seems a lot of the time there is a big excuse badge for being toxic and harrassing if you are doing it in the name of "justice".

    Being 100% against abusers is a righteous cause, but being a toxic person to people (who aren't even totally against what you stand for) is not helpful at all. It creates an echo chamber and bubble and does nothing at all to change the industry. You aren't punching Nazis, you aren't valiantly fighting against people perpetuating abuses, you're just scaring off people that have an opportunity to learn more or help your cause out.

    The issue arose with a very muddied and cloudy situation where the actions that occured and fallout of that have never been clear. Some users reached different conclusions than others, but just about everyone wanted what was best for the individual harmed, we just weren't sure and couldn't agree on if that had happened or not.

    You are hard steering this entire conversation, that I felt was being very productive into another shit slinging show of "You must support the abusers because you don't perfectly agree with me".

    There are quite a number of users here who bully and shame people until they either apologize for having ideas that aren't even harmful or just up and leave the website, which I assume was their ultimate goal in the first place.

    Nobody in this thread is trying to make excuses or bring abusers back.

    I'm absolutely certain that this will continue to worsen throughout the day sadly, but I wish it hadn't. I thought we were making strides in addressing certain issues that have been plaguing the site and was hoping we could all move forward together to deal with these very complex issues.

    I was hoping it wouldn't turn into another feet stomping, name calling, anger fest.
     
    activepassive likes this.
  18. Anthony_

    A (Cancelled) Dork Prestigious


    Not for nothing, but leerkat is one of the least toxic people on this site. You know what is toxic though? Referring to the ESH abuse situation as "a messy personal relationship." Nah to that.
     
  19. BoldTitan

    Trusted

    According to the tiny fraction of info we've ever received on that situation (that hasn't really been added to in a year) it would seem that the situation was a messy personal relationship filled with sexual coercing and possibly more? We still don't know.

    I don't see how that's inaccurate.

    As far as toxic behavior is concerned, if someone is literally banned for being toxic, I'm not sure how else to describe it. I haven't followed them on other threads.
     
  20. bachna84

    we are nothing more than mannequins Prestigious

    that doesn't seem to be the case though
     
  21. Anthony_

    A (Cancelled) Dork Prestigious

    yeah for sure, nbd, just a messy personal relationship, just a minor spat between lovers, happens all the time

    You literally said "messy personal relationship" and then immediately followed it with "filled with sexual coercing and possibly more". Think for one second about what you're saying here.
     
  22. BoldTitan

    Trusted

    Messy personal relationships can be anything from unhealthy behaviors to abuse. I was just differentiating it between child grooming and rape of fans. I wasn't discrediting what could have possibly transpired. We still have no clue.
     
    Matt Chylak and tyramail like this.
  23. username

    hey you lil piss baby

    The problem with the last few pages - at least for me - is that what started as a good and necessary conversation somehow devolved into a string of people “confessing” their ongoing attachment to shitty/abusive artist
     
  24. BoldTitan

    Trusted

    I believe just about everyone in this thread wants abuses to stop, abusers to not have a platform, victims to be taken care of and receive help and for people to better understand ways for this to not happen again.
     
  25. Fucking Dustin

    So tell me something awesome Supporter

    • I just think it's important to be productive in conversation. And I don't necessarily think that means you CAN'T be angry/heated and post aggressive things, just that there's a time and place for that approach (and we've seen those times and places on this site for sure, don't get me wrong) and using it as a catch-all can do more harm than good. (Plus it's more often than not men like me doing that and we REALLY need to not drown out women so often.)
    • I also think this thread shouldn't turn into "Hey check out what problematic artists I listen to" like it did for a moment, even though I'm sure no one intended for it to become that. And I can totally understand seeing that in here and being like "What the fuck is going on?!"
    I have other thoughts but don't yet know how to articulate them so I'll leave it at that for now. None of the above is meant to be accusatory because the whole point of this is to converse about how to approach this thread because of how off the rails it got (or other areas of the site got).​