Accountability in Music • Page 314

The only reason I feel she should be involved is so that she doesn't keep carrying the accusation since her name is on the piece. Dunno if I'm explaining my thinking there properly though. Like if it's just Pitchfork the entity who updates it then people might still come for her, although it's absolutely their responsibility to admit there is grey area here.

A whole mess. I hope the survivors are okay.

 

Is a full retraction necessary? I think including the tweets to give more context on all the various factors of the situation could be useful, but are we discrediting the mediator or the conclusion the journalist gathered from the mediator?

The only thing I'm still unsure of are what the actual actions that took place between the singer and the person he was involved with are, given the confusing wording of the statements released so far.

I think more information and clarity will help everyone understand the issue moving forward.

The mishandling of this entire situation from various parties has really muddled the waters and made it difficult for people to have a full vision of the events and the fallout.

 

(As apparently the only music website in existence so far that hasn't posted about the new album, I'm still not personally comfortable with what I've seen to think everything is clear and above board, so I'm not going to post about the new song or album until I feel more comfortable or find out more information about the secondary accusation at the least.)

 

I’m gonna be real with y’all, I think we need to start thinking about a different approach to how we talk about fans of these bands that get called out as well. Obviously there are many, many shitty people among the ranks of any band’s fanbase, regardless of whether there are accusations or not, but I think a lot of people do genuinely struggle to figure out where they sit with things in regards to their enjoyment of the music as those connections are often hard to replicate, replace, and/or otherwise dismiss; people who do not condone the actions of the accused. Not to mention, there are survivors who still find solace in Pinegrove and Brand New and whatever other band’s songs, and I really just don’t think it’s doing the good that some of y’all think it is to simply write off or shame anyone who decides to talk about the band’s music. There are times where, yes, it’s beneficial to be curt and take hard stances, but far too often I’ve seen it used in a way (especially by men, and ESPECIALLY by white men who end up taking up far too much real estate in these discussions tbh) that’s in its own way harmful and borderline abusive.

Which brings me to a point I wanted to make yesterday but felt personally uncomfortable doing so, I think it’s gross and very far from what this thread was supposed to be (or maybe just imo *should be* to use this thread as a place to take shots at other members of the site, however veiled they may be. It’s also obnoxious to see 20 different variations of “fuck that guy/band/etc” in some type of pile-on that just comes off as self-aggrandizement after a certain point. It doesn’t add to the discussion, doesn’t get us closer to our ultimate goals, and clutters up a thread that could be very productive.

Idk, I’m at work and already been on break too long so I’m rushing this and could prob state some stuff better but *shrug* it is what it is.

 

I agree with this entire post, and especially this part. Sometimes some of the anger in here comes across as performative to me. We absolutely have the right to be angry and frustrated by the state of things, but I think sometimes that anger is misguided toward people on this site who are actively trying to parse their feelings in good faith, and I don’t see how that’s a productive means of achieving the goals of this thread.

 

Honestly, thank you for making this post, I'm glad that this is part of the discussion now. I had to unsubscribe from this thread for a bit because it started to feel like people seeing who could shout the loudest about whoever or whatever artist to the point where it felt like it was overshadowing any of the productive "reckoning" that this thread seems built for.

 

I actually wrote a post very similar to this exact thing yesterday (like, almost word for word in a few places!) to try and get my thoughts wrapped around how I feel about everything in a setting that I felt comfortable in, and to try and figure out any kind of solution or way forward, and since then have been talking with a few prevalent members of the community about it, getting insight, etc. Just wanted to say that, by and large, I definitely agree with a whole lot of this and these thoughts are things I've thought about a lot recently, and it turns out a whole lot of other people have as well.

 

After reading the last three pages of this thread, I'm still not sure what the most updated information is about the Pinegrove accusations. That strikes me as a problem, given the point of this thread.

This is what I've got:
- ESH had a toxic relationship with a fan, including coercing her to leave her boyfriend for him.
- The "resolved' tone of the P4k piece, which positioned him as contrite and having gone through therapy, was contradicted by people on Twitter from the NJ area saying the situation wasn't resolved and may in fact be worse than initially reported. There's been no detail about what that means.

Anything else?

edit:
As a way to give a more tangible understanding to "there's more" on the Pinegrove situation... in addition to a forum member personally vouching for another abuse victim, here is a Twitter thread with a clear claim that the band hasn't addressed:

 

man I’m so glad I made the choice to not be involved in this scene anymore. Tbh going back to this site was a mistake and I shouldn’t even have posted

 

That's as much as I've been able to gather. Once again, still no idea on what the details of the toxic relationship were outside of coercing her to leave her boyfriend. It would be helpful to know.

 

People (and I’m not thinking of anyone in this thread, specifically) absolutely need to be better about addressing people who missed information about bands with allegations. Some of the info in the Pinegrove situation, and others, can be traced down to single tweets or posts that garner almost no media attention. I understand that everyone can and should do their own research, but there are people who only saw the Pitchfork article about PG and genuinely, honestly believe the situation was resolved appropriately. And that isn’t their fault. And I also think that sometimes applies to other bands and industry professionals.

 

I think they can be better about addressing people regardless of how caught up they are, tbh. These things are messier than we like to make them out to be, I got real sad and drunk a month or so ago and listened to a few songs from Science Fiction, and I’m only admitting that because I felt like ashamed of myself and like I would be *cancelled* or whatever if someone here knew (which obv wasn’t gonna happen unless I admitted to it, which I’m ironically only doing now and ugh whatever), but idk my thoughts are tangled here. Should I feel shame? I guess that’s debatable... I don’t really know what good that does. It would’ve been nice to feel like i had a place—a community—to come to and work through those feelings and talk to others who undoubtedly had felt or experienced similar things. But instead I felt, like, a weird genuine fear and a mix of other negative feelings that have just contributed to my feeling alienated from this site as a whole. I think about leaving this site so much, even if I never actually do, I just hate feeling that about a place that used to be a place I’d like... almost go to to escape from those feelings.

 

took a lot of words out of my mouth w that one ^^^

 

Yeah, I appreciate this. BN was my favorite band of all time. I think about their music almost daily. I haven’t listened to them at all since the allegations came out, but I miss the fuck out of that band and don’t know if I’ll totally get over it at this point. In that sense, I 100% agree we should be able to discuss our attachments to bands like BN and PG (another band I was enamored with) without fearing accusations that we don’t care about survivors or care about the artist’s transgressions.

 

There’s definitely a mob mentality that comes with this thread and in other threads, I’ve been guilty of it and honestly, I feel like I’ve enabled a problem more than I helped solve one.

 

This is a great point and has inspired me to make one of my first posts in here. I know I caused some problems and made some enemies the last month or so, but bear with me while I discuss what's been going through my head the last few weeks away from the site.

I originally came here to talk about music. I wasn't really a part of this community during the absolutepunk days, nor did I know much about allegations and accountability in music. I just wanted to find a community to share my love of music with and maybe make friends along the way. Simple as that. Over the next couple of years I was introduced to the idea of holding musicians accountable for their actions. I never really voiced my opinion on it much, as I didn't really know what to say from lack of experience on the topic, but I witnessed conversations on bands abusing their power in very wrong ways and I would be lying if I said it didn't leave an impact on me, and on how I view such a topic. This community helped me realize the importance of this issue, even if I was silent on it for the most part. There was, however, one problem: I had a hard time accepting this line of thinking with bands I liked.

It's not that I don't respect or believe survivors, because I do. I know that Jesse Lacey is a predatory monster. I know that Maynard James Keenan probably is too, and the evidence supports that. The problem was that, for whatever reason, it has been nearly impossible to let go of their music for me, because of how much it means to me. I grew up on this music, and it has a powerful grasp on me because of nostalgia and memories. It's something I don't like the idea of letting go of. Maybe it's selfish, I don't know how to label it, but it's there. I'm jealous of those of you who can let go of such things and who can turn their back on problematic artists and support victims much more easily than I can. It's a very good quality and by no means anything to be judged or attacked for.

I made the mistake of getting hostile and aggressive recently because I felt like I was being attacked for still enjoying music made by shitty people. I lashed out as a result. I got defensive. I said and did things that I shouldn't have. I almost certainly burned bridges and won't be forgiven by everyone here, and I understand and respect that. I shouldn't have blocked good and caring people over simply spreading awareness in a thread because I felt like was being judged and attacked. I contributed to the toxic nature of this drama and it was wrong. I apologize to all of you in this community, even people I don't always get along with.

I am going to try and be a more positive force in these forums from now on.

 

I've also been following this and I'll chime in. I listen to Pinegrove. They're one of a few "newer/contemporary" bands who makes music I genuinely love. I know ESH is entirely likely to be a shitty dude, and I know I should feel bad for still listening to them but I'm not able to rewire my brain to suddenly hate sounds I naturally like.

The only way I'm able to justify it is by doing it privately and not supporting them vocally or financially. I won't buy their merch or their albums, I won't see them live, I won't recommend them to friends. I even bailed from the debate on the Skylight thread after somebody pointed out that we're just bumping the thread over and over and giving them attention (and it just started to get nasty)

My point is, like what you like. If Brand New was your favorite band and you love those songs and miss them, just listen to them. You're not feeding Jesse victims by sitting in your room and listening to something that you like. I wouldn't say go out and defend a shitty human being just because you like their music, or to support them financially...but you're not a bad person for enjoying art that happened to be made by a bad person. (Now if the art was glorifying that shit, that'd be a different story)

I could be very wrong. This is rambling and probably doesn't even get my point across, but whatever. I don't like somebody feeling shame for something they had nothing to do with.

 

Most I've ever been affected by a band member being outed as an abuser is PWR BTTM. I LOVED that band and they were very important for me and I really needed their music at the time. Haven't listened to them since apart from a couple of times when I've been sad and drunk and ended up watching their music videos. I find it really easy to not listen to abusive artists anymore because of the sheer amount of amazing music that comes out every week by non-abusive people

 

Yeah, I will say that pretty much the only band I’ve missed in a serious, thought-consuming way is BN. I’m regularly overwhelmed by the amount of great music out there, so I never have to try too hard to find a new artist to fall in love with.

 

I’ve definitely listened to Tool’s music since it was uploaded to Spotify and I definitely still think Maynard is a rapist.

 

Brand New and Morrissey really were hard for me but I still listen to Smiths because Johnny Marr so that eases that

 

Tim from AILD definitely was a case that affected me. For context, I didn’t really have a good time growing up. I often felt left out or unwanted, as well as being confused about who I was. I remember starting to get into metal and hardcore and bands like AILD helped with that transition, plus it became easier to make friends who mutually liked them. I felt like I belonged in something. Plus, I was Christian at the time and I felt it was really cool that there was this guy who was level headed and chill and wasn’t full on preachy like dudes in other similar bands. I loved that band, saw them many times and some of my favorite concert memories came from that time. To find out that Tim was a piece of shit who tried to get his ex-wife killed was shocking to me, to watch him point fingers at others and shift blame was disheartening. I honestly cannot listen to their music much anymore, it’s really hard to enjoy something you loved knowing what a scumass the dude on the record is.

TL;DR: AILD helped me get into music I love today, now I can’t listen to them.

 

I think its so important to kill your idols. People romanticize guys in bands and have this monumental emotional connection to music, and that makes it so hard to see them as ugly people capable of disgusting things. But its necessary if you want to have a healthy relationship with media in a fucked up world. Because really all these abusers are just fucked up humans who happened to make something that people liked.

Its humanity in a nutshell. People abuse power, and use that same power to cover up abuse. Its all monsters sweeping each other's shit under rugs and hoping no one notices. So many people are corrupted by power and so many horrendous people seek power out, its all over our society. And that's not mentioning all the second hand shit monsters who cover up for abusive people or know of their shit and help them gain an audience and increase their power so they can get just a little bit more power for themselves. Its a systematic problem going all the way down, we all have some shit on our hands.

If there's any minimal thing we can do as individuals, its removing the power from the people who have shown they can't handle it. They gain so much from communities like this, who can spread their art and engage with it in positive ways. They gain even more from communities that spread doubt towards survivors and cover up their actions. At least we aren't a community like that. And if you can, on a personal level, find some way to detach from the emotional connection you might have with a shit monster's art, communities can form and build that actually hold these monsters accountable for their actions. And we can stop the cycle that covers up and spreads around shit.

 

While I very much agree with those ideas, I want to clarify that, personally, the connection I’m talking about is almost entirely based around the music. Yeah, I do tend to look up to the artists themselves, but in the last few posts I’ve made in this thread, I’m strictly referring to my connection with the art, not the artist.

 

I think it's incredibly important to have this conversation and shed light on abuses in the industry that for far too long have been rampant and without justice.

I think it's ok to admit we're human and still have attachments to the lyrics and instrumentation even if the person behind them is a piece of shit. It's a very difficult thing, and probably not too different than having a relative you deeply care about do messed up things. You have the good memories but have to reckon that with the actions they've taken, and make judgements on your own forgiveness and support according to if you think they've made changes or if it's possible to make amends.

Personally haven't listened to brand new since the accusations, and it wasn't even an active choice really for some sort of stance, it was more of a it just didn't feel right given I knew what kind of person he was and the huge defense, not of the music, but of the person because there was a weird idolatry surrounding him with people saying "I don't care what he did." Or saying that they'd never ever believe anything against him.

I do think it is incredibly important to distinguish between assaulters, abusers, child groomers and emotional messy people. An admitted child groomers or accused rapist situation is very different than a messy personal relationship.

Clearly we're still trying to piece together all the details, and the singer didn't help in the vagueness, but harrassing and name calling people who didn't end up at the same conclusion you did, in a very confusing and unclear situation, isn't a productive or civil way to handle things.

I just want to avoid the cyclical fights that far too often pop up. You have to understand that not everyone who may have a different take than you on certain issues is that obnoxious Brand New fan from Reddit who is a big Jesse apologist. Sometimes they're still working things out, don't have all the information, or haven't made the jump to a conclusion that you have.

It's important these conversations remain civil and informative so the most amount of people can be on the side of shaping the industry to be a better place for everyone.