2019-2020 NFL Season Thread [ARCHIVED] Football • Page 546

You aren't going to get outcoached by Payton. You'll get outplayed though. That to me, and the fact that this argument has been entirely focused on one specific aspect of a head coach, makes it incredibly obvious that Payton is not one of the elite coaches.

 

Not being able to stop Payton’s offense IS getting outcoached on that side of the field

 

Most great defensive minded coaches suck at offense too. It’s really just Belicheck that is elite at both. Every other coach seems to lean one way or another.

Maybe you could say Carroll and Tomlin are “very good” at both, and those are two of the only coaches I might put above Payton.

Seems weird to only knock Payton for being one-dimensional at times when that’s just a trend around the league

 

Having elite talent isn't being outcoached. He's not calling plays that baffle defenses. He knows he has a top five QB, RB, and WR and leans heavy on that. He's not making nobodies look amazing or anything.

 

It shouldn't seem weird. Payton is called a top three coach. That puts more scrutiny on him that other one dimensional coaches.

 

This is you being black and white again haha. Just because he has talent doesn’t mean he’s not also outsmarting the DC. Other teams with elite talent get thwarted by good defenses all the time. That seems to be super rare against the Saints though.

You can’t throw deep as much as Brees does without the gameplan “fooling” the defense. It just wouldn’t work. Defenders have more time to react to downfield plays, if they see it coming most defenses can shut big plays down.

What most often creates big plays is the element of surprise, and in order to have that element of surprise despite being a team that throws deep all the time, you gotta have a tricky playbook. And also you gotta be very good at quickly recognizing defensive tendencies so you can attack them. Those are Sean Payton’s unique talents that he is better at than any other coach. Even Andy Reid gets shut down and humbled more than the Saints offense does.

 

By definition, it is very correct

 

I mean, if you're being pedantic about it, sure haha. But MT and Kamara absolutely should've been taken in the 1st round.

 

If it was just about talent then the Giants wouldn’t have gone 2-14 with OBJ and Barkley.

Those two are better than Thomas and Kamara.

 

Yeah, Payton is an elite offensive mind. He also has three elite players running his offense with very little input from the rest of his offense. That's a little suspect. Also, being at best an average defensive team is also suspect. Hence - i don't buy that he is definitely a top three coach.

 

Conveniently left out the most important position there haha

 

Drew Brees' best WR before Michael Thomas was a 7th rd pick from Hofstra.

 

I wouldn’t say “definitely top 3” but I would say “probably top 5” which is still elite tier to me

 

And then fuckin, Ted Ginn and Devery Henderson, two guys who could’ve just ran track instead cause they don’t have good hands

 

Went to Walgreens and came back and we're still here

 

Have you not noticed which two posters are leading the discussion lol

We’re both too stubborn

 

I'm at work. I'll keep going until I clock out.

You'll all be blessed when I'm not working two jobs

 

Brandin Cooks was a 1st round pick from Oregon State.

 

Okay so this is what I wanna know and where I'm kinda stuck

Who with a tenure near the length of Payton's, aside from Belichick and Reid who are obviously better coaches, doesn't have elite players/lapses in certain sides of the ball going against them as a HC?

 

He sucks

 

Lance Moore was an undrafted WR from Toledo.

 

Absolutely no clue. But I'm also not trying to play legacy with it either. I'm going off of what we're seeing now and over the last couple of years.

 

Okay, makes sense. If we're talking like a 3 year window (roughly) then Sean Payton is not top 3-5 for me either. If we're factoring in legacy at all he is.

 

Everyone hates on Ted Ginn, but he's entering his 13th season. Not saying he's the best, but he's held up well.

 

And never remotely as good as MT.