Pinegrove - Skylight (September 28, 2018) Album • Page 101

Yeah then go ahead and do it. The only people complaining about that kind of post are two random people that only show up when this conversation happens. The majority are cool to have both conversations happen.

 

But then you'll post about how I'm not letting them have their conversation. Do you see the problem here

 

We could have different definitions of an insult, but that comment reads like an insult to people who still listen to me.

 

I must have just misjudged the maturity of people on the internet? IDK just trying to think of less toxic solutions.

 

This honestly doesn't seem to be the case outside of maybe two random posters who only show up here when this exact same conversation happens every week.

 

I'd argue that just letting people talk about the band or the album or songs without pushback is in effect letting Pinegrove, Brand New, and other bands that contain abusers or supporters of abusers, continue to profit and proliferate in their fan base and finances and that is very very bad. It lets these bands and these people continue to have support when they shouldn't, it lets abusers continue to have a platform when they shouldn't, it re-victimizes and is triggering for survivors of abuse to see these people continue to be praised for their music and brought up positively, and it does nothing to address the problem of abuse in the industry if we just ignore it and let people who wanna talk about them and support them openly.

 

Weird, all I see there is two conversations happening at once.

 

Please rank these things in order of toxicity because I don't think we have the same conception of that word

Talking uncritically about a band that has unresolved allegations of misconduct

Posting about how you shouldn't do the above

 

That's cool. Like I said, different definitions.

 

I think the idea that there’s only a small percent that want to talk about the album is a little naive. It made a LOT of people’s EOTY lists on this site.

I’m not saying that album discussion should go unchecked though. It absolutely should. Just that I think it’s a bigger problem than the 2-3 people who constantly bring it up as if they are hurt they cannot talk about it. I don’t have a solution, but it’s a bigger problem than just ignoring the discussion.

 

This is a really good point, but I think the point then moves to how much you need to control the conversation. To repeat everything to someone who enjoys the band/album would just cause the endless cycle to continue without change right?

Someone posts about liking the album -> someone responds against them -> arguments ensue -> repeat

Right?

 

I do still listen to this band, and I engage in conversation about the music, but I try not to do it here, because I like all of you, and enjoy talking about other music with you in a lot of other threads. If it is as upsetting to you as it seems to be, I'm cool taking that conversation elsewhere, for your sake. I think thread locking might not be a bad idea, especially since that's what happened with the Brand New thread recently. This can still here so new people can look it up, read, and make informed decisions.

 

I believe the Brand New thread will be unlocked when the ignore thread feature gets pushed out.

Not positive though

 

That's not a good thing imo. I'd summer these be closed threads with a disclaimer about the reasoning

 

I believe that @Jason Tate thinks it isn't good to have threads closed. The threads can be a good place for people to talk about their feelings and work through these issues almost like therapy. Before the Brand New thread devolved into what it did there was some amazing discussion about peoples feelings and how the news and post allegations had changed them. I think those kinds of discussions as well as discussion of the allegations are important.

 

So, you agree then that those are the only topics these threads should be used to discuss and the only reason they should remain open? Because that's what this dispute is all about, in the end.

 

It’s an insult to (correctly) say that people are talking about the band in here like nothing happened?

 

Yeah I think I agree with that. I personally don't have a problem if people want to discuss "the music" but I think the primary purpose for these threads should be to discuss feelings, the allegations, ways restorative justice could possibly be achieved, reasons why maybe restorative justice might not be possible, ways these things can be handled better and generally more constructive and positive teaching for those who may not understand these types of situations the same. I think that's a much better use of these threads than either talking about the music or fighting with those who want to talk about the music.

I also think there are different degrees to all this. Like i don't think everyone who wants to talk about the music equate to praising Evan. There is a difference. Nobody should be coming here to praise the abuser. But also those that only want to discuss the music need to realize this is sensitive and that not everyone agrees with them and that they may get called out.

I just think everyone in general should take a few minutes of self reflection before posting and that will help these threads and others not devolve into fighting or a sense of "Us vs Them" Its easy to get heated and feel antagonistic towards each other, especially since it feels like there has become groups that feel like they are against each other. I know I've clashed with you as well as others before but I've also had great interactions with you and @dadbolt and @Joe4th I think at the end of the day the majority on the site have more in common then not.

Anyways, that was a lot of rambling and most of it not to the point of your original question. But yes I agree these threads shouldn't be used for primarily discussing the music. If that's all you are wanting to happen here, then expect pushback or go somewhere else to just discuss the music.

 

These are my feelings on the matter.

 

i think this was very well put

 

I can't agree with this statement, it's just not true. ESH is this band. And not even just in the sense that he writes all the lyrics and the music or whatevever. Any member of any band is the band. Bands are people, they aren't separate entities from their members. In a situation like what happened with lostprophets, where the rest of the band does the right thing and moves on and proves to be decent human beings, that's one thing. But in a situation like this one or like with BN, even if the rest of the band isn't culpable, they're complicit. There is no way to praise this band separate and apart from ESH. It can't be done.

On this and most of the rest of what you said, we agree. There are plenty of place around the internet where one will receive no pushback of any kind for publicly praising problematic artists.

 

Being wishy washy and letting people continue to publicly support a band with a problematic past is the reason that JJR still has a job with a prominent band in the scene. It's the reason Harry Corgan still feels okay touring and putting out music.

It becomes "us vs. them" because, for whatever reason, people don't have the self control to simply not post. It's very easy to not post about this band. It's very easy to not like posts defending the band while completely ignoring the other side and refusing to engage in the conversation. That's passive aggressive as hell, and that's what a lot of people who are posting now did during the initial conversation taking place. So excuse me for side-eyeing the devil's advocates on this one.

I find it fucked that, with all the information known to us posted in this thread, people still feel okay or not dirty with them putting out music and touring. It's baffling to me, I don't understand it. I get drawing a line and art vs. artist and all that, but the business as usual mentality that is adopted in this thread and in threads for other bands that have done abusive things is toxic. It's a big reason why abuse is so rampant in the scene.

 

I agree that praising the band equals praising Evan. That isn't what I meant. I meant simply discussing the music doesn't equate to praising Evan. I think you can discuss music without outright praising it. I get what you mean though and even if I worded it poorly I do agree with you.

 

I think people can enjoy the music and not support the band. Supporting would be paying tickets for shows, buying LPs etc. But I'm interested in hearing points on how streaming on YouTube/Apple Music/Spotify would equate to support?

 

stop to think how it must feel for victims of abuse to see people championing these bands publicly. do whatever you want in private imo, if you listen to them I don’t think any less of you. but I think you should think twice before, for example, bumping this thread just to say how cool it was they did whatever at their shows