Pinegrove - Skylight (September 28, 2018) Album • Page 95

How exactly can he continue to address this in a way that satisfies everyone here?

 

while I fall somewhere in the middle of the two viewpoints going on here, people defending him sound real bad and are not articulating their thoughts in a meaningful way and should definitely stop right now

Like, people are justified in why they are upset and you don’t need to question them or act like they are tone policing - it is a very bad look

 

He doesn't need to satisfy us. He needs to satisfy his victim(s) which he has not done.

 

Okay and what does he need to do to satisfy them?

 

Uhhh how would anyone in here know that? That is up to the victim(s)

 

Weird. Everyone here is acting like they know of something that's been requested of ESH and PG that they aren't doing.

 

Well we know that they predicated their return on the one publicly-known victim supposedly being okay with it when that wasn’t true.

We also have it on pretty good authority that there are more victims that haven’t even been acknowledged by Evan or the band.

 

If that wasn't true, someone should reach out to Pitchfork and correct the record. I'm quite certain they would post an update and a retraction.

It borders on libel to act like there are scores of victims when no one actually knows that to be the case.

And terms like "victim" and "abuser" are so simultaneously diluted and charged these days that they are losing their usefulness. It's easier to flatten these terms to apply broadly to everyone from jerks to rapists, but it's not helpful in maintaining the nuance necessary to have productive conversations surrounding the topic. I am still reading posts on Twitter that refer to him as a rapist. People are wishing actual harm to come to ESH in this thread. It is completely out of control.

Again, it would just be better to admit that you don't actually prefer restorative justice, or even retributive justice. You prefer mob justice and excommunication

 

Weird that you only pop up to defend this dude. Go away

 

I prefer you fuck off.

 

Textbook example of the guy's point..

 

Lay off


No reason to get nasty

 

Did you read that dumpster fire of a post? How many times do we have to go through the same apologist talking points?

 

I think he’s trying to work through it the same as you and me or anyone else, Daniels a good guy I’ve had a lot of convos with him about this stuff. If you want to continue I prefer you message me dm.

 

I think he’s gonna defend Evan at all costs. That’s almost his entire post history. It’s old.

 

Maybe maybe not, but my discussions with them privately have said differently

 

I don’t have a stake in this game. I’ve mostly just been lurking. I never listened to Cardinal and I really like Skylight but not nearly enough to even blink if Pinegrove went away. I also think the recent Pinegrove post is odd and not a good look.

That being said, I find it disturbing when I see honest, thoughtful conversation brutally shut down the way it’s been here. It’s clear that @activepassive likes Pinegrove a whole lot, but I looked over his previous posts and (IMO) the points he’s brought up this whole thread are way too nuanced to simply belittle him to an Evan apologist who’s just trying to “defend him at all costs”. But if you read everything he says through that kind of lens it kind of keeps you from really considering what he’s saying. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Whatever the case, someone actually wished Evan physical harm on the previous page. Joking or not, that’s not cool and no one called him out on it, which tells me that kind of thing is not entirely unacceptable to say here. But then someone starts a different kind of conversation on this subject that doesn’t involve calling Evan trash and he’s told to eff off. And then everyone claps. This is weird to me.

 

Conversation has not been “brutally shut down” lol gimme a break dude

 

How exactly isn’t it? When someone only responds with eff off... that’s shutting down conversation.

 

It wasn’t honest, thoughtful conversation. I feel that the poster has been acting in bad faith throughout the entire thread, and the points brought up once again about doubting the legitimacy of the claims or other victims is simply harmful. You can go read me being nice or thoughtful or w/e a few months ago. Waiting for the initial wave of emotions to die down and reposting already refuted points is silly

 

Other people have popped up on Twitter saying Evan acted inappropriately with them, like giving alcohol to someone underage and trying to kiss them. The tweets (if they haven’t been deleted) are in this thread somewhere or the Accountability in Music thread. It’s not just conjecture coming out of nowhere.

 

You're not allowed to have a different opinion on this complicated issue. If you don't agree with the majority you're told to "fuck off" and that you're an apologist fan boy. You're told that it's violence, it's scoffed every time someone mentions enjoying anything about the band. Even the band member mentioning pumpkin tortellini is literally infuriating to many people. How DARE he. If he doesn't handle this exactly as I want him to, he's awful.

I enjoyed Cardinal. Skylight was fine. I think the dude has probably had issues and I definitely wouldn't idolize him or say I'm a fan of him personally. It sounds like he's worked on it. Compensated a lot. Worked with the victim. That's the knowledge I have minus some subtweets and up in the air rumors. It's perfectly fine for people to draw their own conclusions and not support it. I understand. It's also perfectly fine for people to continue listening to the band if they choose.

This isn't a black and white situation like Brand New. It's got a lot of moving pieces and should be treated as such.

The mentality of this website has for a long time been group think. Shut down any different opinions. Tell people they are insincere or stupid or ignorant or a terrible person. There absolutely have been dumb people who jump in and say shit like "I don't care what Jesse did" etc. And that detracts from the conversation and is not helpful. But in situations like this, I don't think it's fair to think you know so much about the situation that you're able to attack other people over it. There are people who come in, who may or may not know all the nuances of the situation and just want to discuss the music and get lambasted.

Honestly what's the point of even having this thread. Just lock it and shut it down. It will literally be a cycle of interested pinegrove fan meets "ew gross" people who hate the band over and over. It's tiring and it's not productive and I see no end to it. I hope the victim and all parties affected are ok.

There are a lot of great productive conversations on this website about accountability and there are also a lot of hostile, toxic, unproductive ones.

 

Can we still keep in mind that there was a person, literally in this thread, who knows another victim? Can we keep in mind that people who know the survivor discussed in the p4k article have been told by that survivor to challenge the redemption narrative? Can we also keep in mind the other people who have come forward to say Evan was weird or creepy to them?


Because with that in mind, I think you can very easily see why people are angry that theyre touring and being twee and talking about pasta

 

For what it's worth, I got the same weird vibes from the post before I saw anyone's response. Still do. I think the Pinegrove situation looks increasingly bad. Even if something crazy happened and there were a bunch of false accusations, which I'm not inclined to believe is the case, the band hasn't presented themselves well. Pitchfork certainly did them no favors at the end of the day. I get why people are mad and I know people should be to a degree.

That said, can we not reign it in? I'm shamelessly tone policing right now, but I don't see how it's doing any of the victims or anyone else any favors to wish that Evan would choke on his tortellini or to banish someone who's still working things out, even if it's becoming insufferable to some people. I don't know, what would happen if we just stayed calm? And moving beyond this specific situation, I've seen similar talking points to those in @activepassive's post shut down elsewhere before and it concerns me because I think they're pretty important things to discuss (different levels of victimhood, mob mentality, restorative justice, etc.). I don't think that's a conversation to have here, and maybe it has a hundred times already and I missed it, but the fact that even I feel slightly nervous putting stuff out there that's not popular makes me feel like something's off in the way we communicate.

That's all I intend to say here. Though I will say more if someone asks me to. Hope I'm not coming off as pious. And not to sound kumbaya-ish, but I do love you guys even though I don't really know any of you beyond words on a page. I'm just concerned and I'm really not big on wishing death by tortellini on anyone as hilarious as that is.

 

I believe in restorative justice. I also believe in the fact that the victim should be 100% in control of how that justice takes place. In the case of the Pinegrove situation, it appears that the victim is still unhappy with the way it played out. And that there are other victims.

It's very frustrating to me that this is becoming (from what I gather) male fans upset that they are made uncomfortable for talking about a band that has an abuser in it. This same rhetoric was used in the Brand New thread which ultimately got locked. You (general you, not you specifically) are not what matters. You being uncomfortable about posting positive things about a band that has a problematic past is...okay. I'm okay with people taking a step back and being like "is it worth me publicly supporting a problematic band"?

What you do in private is on you. You can listen to the band, you can go to the shows, you can do whatever. But I'm still going to push back against public support. I didn't wish death on the dude, so I can't speak on that. I also don't think that that's the major issue in this thread.

The user you're referencing has been pushing a very specific narrative since they joined the thread. They've carried it through the initial allegations, the p4k review and people in this thread explicitly stating that they know of other people that Evan has mistreated or abused. That's where a lot of my frustration and lack of patience comes from. There's context to the posts.