MetalSucks Explains Why They Won’t Support This As I Lay Dying Reunion • Page 3

I think a great way to show our disapproval of this is to start messaging any venues the band books and tell them that if Tim plays there we'll be boycotting that venue and all future shows held there. I know it may not sound like much, but it's a real, actionable step.

I've had people in my life do terrible things. They've served their debt to society, but that doesn't mean they've earned the privilege to have everything return to the way they were. Your actions need to have real, tenable consequences.

 

To echo what I said in the metal thread about this filtered through my general thoughts on Metalsucks as an op-ed blog:

The sentiment behind what they are doing here is great and noble. Artists who've committed shit like this shouldn't receive coverage, but their historical hypocrisy and sensationalism when covering the metal scene leaves me incredulous about how consistent this policy is going to be enforced in the future. Like @DarkHotline said, they've used their platform to talk about POSs like Varg Vikernes, Phil Anselmo, Phil Labonte, and the Destroyer 666 dude before and given coverage to their music. It doesn't help that the writing quality of their content has declined dramatically over the years since I started reading their page back in 2009/2010. And their recent editorials have spawned some groan worthy pieces like this:

Editorial: MetalSucks is More Metal Than You’ll Ever Be | MetalSucks

(Which spawned this lovely parody article: Editorial: You're Probably More Metal Than Toilet ov Hell)

Editorial: Of Course Black Metal Is Racist—It’s Evil | MetalSucks

Editorial: Yeah, You Need A Bassist | MetalSucks

So yeah, I agree with what they're doing, but I'm skeptical because of some of the stuff they've done for hits in the past.

 

I am not for this move but I love how I can bet there are people posting about this that support Falling In Reverse or bands they tour with and websites like this posting things about Falling in Reverse with no issue

 

Unless there's a weird pocket of this site that I'm not familiar with, Ronnie Radke, Falling in Reverse, and his ardent supporters have been continually and unequivocally condemned here for what he's done.

 

Yap. Literally one post about that band on this site, and it's cause they were on tour with someone else:

Falling in Reverse • chorus.fm

 

Unfortunately one of the reasons I don't go to too many metalcore shows anymore is because those fans are exactly the type of people to see this as a laughing matter. Fortunately there are hundreds of metal bands just as good, or better, who aren't trying to murder their spouses. I'll be over there with them.

 

I say fuck this guy but i dont see the logic of essentially saying ¨i believe in second chances and forgiveness but he cant be in a band/have celebrity status.¨ My question is what jobs do you want this guy to get? He shouldnt be in a band but could he be a salesman, chef, teacher, lawyer, plumber, veterinary, etc? The dude tried to kill his wife, he can hurt someone and do something atrocious in any job he has. He has a violent felony on his record so he can say goodbye to half the jobs on the list and tons more.

So while i personally say fuck this guy and i would never rejoin his band, never see his shows, and i really couldnt care less if he ends up dead on the side of a road, if you really believe in forgiveness and second chances and if this guy truly deserved a second chance i dont see why he cant restart his band. Its easy to say dont let him do job A while forgetting where he ends up in job B.

 

I'm not saying it's an argument founded in "logic" as much as it's founded in an emotional connection to a music scene that I want to feel safe and inviting to all people, especially those that have been pushed out of it over the years, one such group being women. I'm saying we as a music community can say: you don't get to be in our group anymore because we don't want that kind of garbage in it because we want to send a specific message.

I'm sure some of those are fine. My desire to speak specifically about our music scene doesn't require I have every answer to every profession.

And I would argue that we as a society should do a much better job helping the formerly incarcerated find work in society. That's a separate point. That doesn't mean someone has a right to an audience, celebrity, or a music community.

That's because we're talking about our music community and what we want it to be and what message we want to send to people. I don't think it's incongruent to discuss our music community in that way while also believing that someone should not be ostracized from any work. He's been given a second chance, that's what being released from prison is, I don't think that second chance should be in any music scene (especially not one I want to be a part of), for various reasons already mentioned, and a second chance does not mean a second chance at celebrity and fame and fortune. There's plenty of other people that didn't try and kill their wives that deserve a first chance before I'll care about this dick.

 

Has Alt-Press written a gushy comeback article yet?

 

I agree, but do you think anyone wants that garbage? Like which of those professions are you cool with him joining because im pretty sure the overwhelming majority of employees working within those fields dont want this piece of shit in their scene either.

But he does have a right to be in a band which might lead to an audience, celebrity, or music community. Those are established by society or other people. Literally no one has a ¨right¨ to an audience, celebrity, or music community. But i´m pretty sure he doesnt have right to is practice law, teach, be a vet, vote, along with a ton of other things.

No one is talking about caring for him, fuck him. The point is you dont want him in your community (which is understandable) and prefer he goes to another community. But most of the other communities dont want him while enough of the music community will welcome him back. The people cool with hiring him are probably friends or family who know him, or businesses that receive tax breaks or other incentives for hiring convicted felons released from prison. Like if you eat at a Ruby Tuesday, Applebees, Dennys, etc. enough theres a decent chance its being made by a convicted felon who was hired not because of his skills or personality, but because it was a business decision/for money.

So i dont disagree with you not wanting him anywhere near the music scene, but if youre cool with making him go to another field/scene as long as its not in music then i think it means that he isnt forgiven nor deserves a second chance. And thats cool too. I dont think a single person in this thread knows if he should actually be forgiven and given a second chance. So at this point i think most people are saying, fuuuuck no. And thats fine because fuck that guy.

 

I don't know, I don't speak for them. But I can think of plenty of jobs off the top of my head where I think it would be just fine and not anywhere near the same as being a "famous celebrity musician." I don't think many 'professions' are analogous with this specific one, and, it remains the one I know intimately and so I speak up about it.

No, he has the opportunity. We can, and should, say "no."

This is a problem with our misogynistic music community and why I continue to speak out against it.

I'm aware. This has nothing to do with not wanting to give him a space or platform in the music industry.

I disagree with your conclusion. Saying you don't get to be a celebrity and that our music scene does not want this kind of person in it says that and that alone. Forgiveness does not mean "zero consequences." And believing it's possible for someone to get forgiveness doesn't mean he, specifically, gets it in this situation.

 

If they truly wanted to do AILD, they could have found a guy with a harsh vocal, Tim really isn’t anything special and his stage presence is well....nothing

 

Tim owns the name

 

Ok but you still havent named a single one? Are you cool with him being a teacher? I assume no. It seems a big problem is him having an audience/being a celebrity. So would you be cool with him becoming a chef but if he later becomes a super famous chef, then he should start a new profession?

He literally has the right to be in a band and express himself. The government will not come bang down his door and exclude him from doing this. Yes he has the opportunity to an audience, celebrity, or music community. Not sure what youre saying ¨no¨ to.

I feel like no one in this thread can determine whether he truly deserves forgiveness or a second chance without actually know what hes done the past few years and what he really thinks. But i still think if you dont want him in a band, you dont want him in your scene, then there isnt forgiveness and second chance.

If two people are dating and person A does something horrible to person B and then asks for forgiveness and a second chance and person B responds by saying ¨i forgive you and i will give you a second chance but never talk to me again and stay away from me for the rest of your life¨... then i think something might be off. again THIS IS TOTALLY OK. People arent automatically entitled to forgiveness and second chances but im pretty sure excluding him from the only job hes had for 15+ years (?) isnt a second chance.

 

Forgiveness and restoration/reconciliation aren't the same thing. For example:

Let's say that this guy's wife decided to forgive him for ordering a hit out. That would be lovely. And probably healthy for her long term. As a Christian and as a person who believes in forgiveness, I'd say that's a great long term goal for her to work towards.

That's entirely different than her taking him back as her husband. That would be enabling an abuser to abuse again. That would be a decidedly terrible decision, and nothing anyone should be encouraging.

Apply that simple principle to a job, and there you are. Forgiveness is great; reconciliation and restoration often is not.

 

Never thought I'd read Ronnie Radke's name on this site, thanks for that /s

 

He shouldn't be allowed a public platform after what he did.Thats the difference for me between him being in the band and having a "normal" job. I think a consequence and part of taking responsibility for what you have done is recognizing how your presence in your platform makes others feel unsafe and unwelcome. To me like... if I did something like that and truly had changed as a person I wouldn't want to continue hurting others, including the victim, by having a public platform where they are continually reminded of my presence everyday and have to re-process that trauma every time I grabbed a headline. He can still find a job with no platform or influence and lead a fairly normal life if he wants. He can still write and play music in his garage for all I care. But I don't think he deserves a public platform and I feel like giving it up is the responsible thing to do.

 

It's not my job to sit here and come up with jobs I'm "cool" with someone having. I'm saying what I don't think he should do and why. I have zero interest in having some secondary debate made up of these stupid hypotheticals.

Nah, I don't give a fuck what he's done in the last few years. He tried to kill his wife, fuck that. I've explained this at least three times now, so either re-read my posts or don't, I don't care anymore.

Cool. I've forgiven people in my life I don't want to ever see or talk to again. What forgiveness and justice looks like to people is for them to decide, not you.

For the last time, cause I'm done saying the same thing over and over again: a second chance at living a life, not behind prison bars, does not mean you get the exact same life back.

 

The fact that he is even doing this is so upsetting honestly. Every time I see an abusive man "rise from the ashes" and reclaim their fame and platform it's just another reminder what men can do to women and still succeed. How very inspiring for them. If he had hired someone else his ex wife and mother of his children would be dead right now and he is planning a comeback. Like what does that say to survivors of DV and abuse, whose pain always seems to be secondary

 

I just wanna say that I really appreciated this thread because most of it was really insightful conversation back and forth and not just a straight shitshow. I left feeling like I appreciated hearing both perspectives, which isn't often the case

 

Well, as the Monty Python song went about always looking on the bright side of life, at least we won't have to worry about As I Lay Dying playing on Warped Tour next year, will we?

I really think that if As I Lay Dying actually does reform with Tim and play some shows they won't have problems finding bands to tour with, or festivals to play. It's remarkable how little press is given to issues like this -- artist misbehavior ranging from misconduct to extreme criminal behavior (like trying to hire a hit man to go after one's wife). It's also possible that AILD might disband again in the near future if they get bad enough press -- and if labels/promoters/sponsors don't sufficiently show interest in them, and if that happens everyone but Tim will be able to take credit for making the right moral choice by not following through on reforming the group.

After all, if the same crime had been committed by a lesser known musician in the music scene, say someone who plays in the background and not the lead singer/guitarist/focus of public attention, does anyone think that it would cause this much fuss if they came back to a band like AILD? And who even thinks to ask about the possible criminal record(s) of roadies or local promoters or other influential parties in the music scene who fans and bands may have more direct, personal contact with than the most prominent figure in a band like AILD?

Only once a pattern can be discerned can one say they are moving in the right direction, and as we just saw with Spotify's new policy (followed after the good press died down by a reversal) taking some artists out of their curated playlists for "hateful behavior", a company can take a public stand on something like this and get praised and good press for doing so, then reverse the policy completely (or almost completely) and get far less coverage and criticism by the press or the music and entertainment industry in general.

Unless there's a clear pattern established by articles like this from MetalSucks, it won't make any more difference than Spotify did by their recent policy change, then almost immediate reversal, a 360 degree spin which may as well have been planned in advance by Spotify -- make a dramatic public statement about taking a stand against "hateful behavior" or "hate speech" or whatever to appease people who are criticizing them and so look good in the press, then reverse the policy (or just don't enforce it) to satisfy people in the music scene who complain or ask too many questions about how the policy will be enforced. Spotify is trying to have it both ways, and it seems so far like they are succeeding.

And "well what about X, Y or the lyrics to Z." Yes, I'd like to know about that as well, but if Spotify can't coherently draft a policy that can keep R. Kelly out of their curated playlists (and I wonder if is he going back or already back in the curated/officially promoted playlists?) and the metal "press" doesn't take a similar stand about AILD it hardly seems worth asking about X, Y, or the lyrics to Z.

It may seem like a huge debate on threads like these, located several clicks off of the main article of an already niche-market industry-oriented website, or similarly with debates in sub-sub-reddits of "/poppunkers" or whatever, but this story with AILD -- and the vast majority of stories like these -- are absolutely off the radar of most of the music press, and wholly unknown to the mainstream media.

Seriously, metal and metal-inclusive concerts and festivals get far less attention from the press and legal / political powers that be compared to rap and EDM concerts festivals, in part because there are fewer major crimes like homicide or drug overdoses connected to metal festivals. Local governments, like the agencies involved in issuing permits and businesses licenses would much rather have a metal festival than a rap or EDM festival of similar size, and many other local businesses stand to benefit from them as well -- and they seem to care no more about the misbehavor of the artists than the lyrics in their songs. If you don't believe that, try writing those agencies and local political and legal entities with your concerns about the character of artists performing at these events, or go to a city hall meeting and voice your concerns in person. So AILD touring and playing at a major festival the size of a Warped date, or a bigger event like a Riot Fest, or Rock on the Range, even the most mainstream of events with family-friendly sponsors -- really, who would complain?

And I think that most people in the musc industry hope it stays that way until they come up with a "solution" like Spotify's policy, or at least a charitable cause like Musicares or some victim/survivor support group to give some of their profits to, and make us feel better about supporting the associated scene.

 

I am aware, that's why I said "maybe" and included multiple caveats of "as someone that has no idea who the authors of this website are beside seeing some bylines."

I don't think Spotify is succeeding. I know quite a few people that stopped using them and their last few weeks have been a press nightmare.

I was speaking from my personal experience where this happens quite often. It happened in this thread.

Thanks for the thinly veiled slight. But, I disagree. Not only have I had discussions with people in the mainstream media and the biggest names in the "music press." More people care than you're giving credit.

A lot of people.

 

1. Secrets are opening their comeback show. That band loves Jonny Craig, so fuck them. Any band that agrees to tour with As I Lay Dying gets blacklisted, plain and simple. I can totally see Slaves and Falling In Reverse touring with them because morons gotta stick together, right?

2. The only record label that would probably work with them at this point is Victory Records because they're a piece of shit label.

3. If this happened to anyone else (guitarist, drummer), it would've haunted them to the point where they'd have to quit music.

 

I’ll try again to explain the main points I was making, though I’ll probably go on for so long I may not make my points much better than before. This will probably be the last I write about this for now. I do appreciate the post with the link to the metalsucks article and the discussion it's created here. I may help to make clear I didn't mean any of what you quoted below, or anything else I wrote as a slight:

"It may seem like a huge debate on threads like these, located several clicks off of the main article of an already niche-market industry-oriented website, or similarly with debates in sub-sub-reddits of "/poppunkers" or whatever, but this story with AILD -- and the vast majority of stories like these -- are absolutely off the radar of most of the music press, and wholly unknown to the mainstream media."

I'm not meaning to complain about how you run your website, Jason, it would be kind of pointless for me to do so, and if I didn't find things worthwhile here to read I wouldn't be here or try to comment occasionally.

As far as what I meant by stories like AILD's reunion being "wholly unknown to the mainstream media" I meant in actual coverage. Maybe everyone here knows that, but anyone can verify and see what's maybe changed that by going to say Google News and searching for "Tim Lambesis" or the band's name and, at this time, seeing three of the narrowest of niche music media websites, like metal-oriented websites, mentioning the reunion. Anyone can look at the publication dates and knowing the market reach of the various sites seeing how the story got some traction in three of those sites (namely loudwire,com, metalinjection.net, and metalsucks.net) -- a few critical stories have been published, remarkably -- but nothing in larger publications like Spin and Rolling Stone, and the story doesn't seems to be going anywhere. It's only been a few days since AILD's reunion was officially announced, but it's been known for far longer that they were in the process of getting back together, and in the age of the internet and social media that's plenty long enough for larger publications to say something if they wanted to do so.

I'm sure Jason is in touch with some writers or staff of larger publications about stories like these, the former website absolutepunk.net was affiliated with Spin, for example. It especially makes sense for Chorus to at least mention this story with this thread at this time, in between a few metal music sites breaking the story and maybe Spin or a larger media outlet picking up on it. But unless something unexpected happens I don't think outlets larger than those niche metal music media sites will be giving this coverage unless there is some meaningful protest and I doubt there will be, or unless AILD breaks up again, and I only see that happening if they don't get interest from other bands/labels/promoters backing them to play shows.

I'm sure that writers or staff with larger music publications like Spin or others are following the story, and music and some entertainment writers or staff with the biggest mainstream outlets like the Chicago Tribune, LA Times, and maybe TV and cable networks as well. I'm not saying "no one cares" -- the few stories written in those three metal music-focused sites sound like the authors care about how what few fans and stakeholders care about this, not to mention how it appears to the larger community outside their market. I was trying though to help explain how few people in authority who ought to care do so, and why.

The main thing I was trying to add to the conversation was how "artists" and business interests in the music scene can engage in conduct like this with almost no attention, much less sanction, from their peers and the public at large unless they are outright arrested and convicted for crimes, and as we see here, in some cases not even if they are arrested and convicted.

I don't think it's so much an artifact of a deviant subculture that this is the case. I think more people than most of us realize -- and more mainstream, local interests like local businesses and city governments -- stand to make money from bands like AILD touring and -- especially -- playing larger concerts and festivals. To what extent they know of the individual examples I doubt most care one bit more about what Tim Lambresis did any more than any of the other artists briefly making music news over the last several years from Ronnie Radke and Johnny Craig to Jessie Lacey and Jake McElfresh.

Money is being made by many more interests these days than the traditional businesses in the music industry like labels and the music media. There's been a trend toward more money being made from businesses and local interests that benefit from the music industry where concerts and touring are concerned. As people here especially know, the trend over the last few decades has been for less money being made from recorded music and more from live performances, especially from larger festivals.

I ended my comment above with examples of that, how local businesses and city governments make money off of festivals with metal acts and how they prefer them -- even with bands like those I mentioned above -- over rap and EDM festivals. I think that’s significant and has gotten little attention. It’s remarkable despite how strong conservative political forces are these days (especially in some more conservative states, many of whom host large festivals where a band like AILD play) that there is little organized complaint about bands like have been mentioned (like the X, Y, and Z you alluded to) either with their conduct or lyrics. Some people and groups do complain, and in their niche complain loudly like with what happened with R. Kelly and Spotify, but I don’t have anything more to add on that right now that I haven’t already.

A while back -- maybe decades, I don’t know -- there were more complaints about artist misbehavior and criminal activity and (as you mentioned) lyrics. The easiest example to give would be demands a few decades ago, lasting many years, to label records with “parental advisory” stickers. I don’t support most of what I think was the intent of that, but looking back as best as I can tell at least some of the people involved seemed to have legitimate concern about kids and families. I can see how there would be less reason to complain about record or CD labeling when so few records or CDs are being sold today, but that doesn’t explain why there is so little complaint about artist misbehavior and criminal behavior or, yes, some of their lyrics. There hardly seems to be any concern being expressed like that today even from conservative groups, especially in relation to performances by these artists at concerts and festivals. I think in that's maybe because the political forces that might complain have figured out how to profit from them in ways they didn't decades ago when there were more complaints about artist behavior and lyrics.

I’ll end this comment thanking Chorus for mentioning the metalsucks article and the story about AILD’s apparent reunion. Really. There’s not a whole lot of other places where one could learn about this and criticize it, as you know.