Accountability in Music • Page 60

srry to jump into this convo so late...i just read this and i think that not having them stay on the tour is a good move in the right direction. just even searching sorority noise on twitter [i love pain and invalidating myself] reveals there was a chunk of ppl going to this tour specifically for them?

really agree w/ the person who said that twy try to do the right thing but the problem is the scene at large. hoping as they move away from pop punk into 'alt' that maybe some of that can die down a little and the shows can be a better place for everyone to have fun.

idk, twy mean a lot to me, i want to hold them accountable so that they can grow n be better people. being all men means they come from a background that probably not conducive to like learning the nuances of abuse and stuff.

also wanna point out that evan weiss was not at the chicago pop up shop as far as i saw, and i did see him at the previous acoustic show twy did. it could be that hes not welcome around them anymore due to his role in enabling abuse?

 

The scene at large seems to continuously be brought up and I saw a post on Reddit that said emo is largely liked by vulnerable people and attracts types that will exploit that

I just wanna say I am fairly opposed to that. Shitty people will be shitty and you will encounter them in every subculture, hardcore and rap are not somehow more immune due to the attitude of the fan base. This conversation is important and it's worth celebrating the fact that it is happening and appropriate actions are being taken, not that we need to leave something we love because it is seemingly a breeding ground for toxicity. We just have to work to make it better (something that I need to do some serious soul searching about) and I genuinely feel that major strides are being taken to do that.

 

this made me feel better about this whole shitty thing actually. it feels like a losing battle so much of the time

 

I think this instance can be really important as eye opening for folks. If we're going 100% from just what the victim said, and not speculating on other things, we're left with a few facts that stand out to me:

- Cam and the victim were engaged in sexual actions, including potentially intercourse (her wording isn't super clear but it can be read that way);

- The assault itself was part of what had been happening - the 'we were awake/fell asleep/woke up and continued' pattern; which leads to,

- The victim not knowing it was rape at first, for weeks after, and even now as she's telling her story, admitting it isn't 'cut and dry.' And perhaps partly because of that, she openly wonders if Cam even remembers what happened at all.

All of that is true. And yet it was STILL definitely rape, she STILL has long term effects like panic attacks, and the pain STILL is part of who she is. So often, we think about these conversations and we worry about intent, or we think about someone being a scumbag or a creep. Even the victim in her statement admitted Cam isn't those things. And yet he still raped her, and the pain is still as real as if he was.

So often when it IS cut and dry, it's easy to just sit in judgment of someone and say 'fuck that guy, he's horrible and I could never do that.' But this instance, and this victim statement, tells me ANYONE who isn't purposely careful can ruin someone's life by being thoughtless and careless. And it doesn't have to be a creep or a scumbag; it can be any of us. Including me. We HAVE to get better at communication and getting consent - the stakes are too high. This victim says it isn't cut and dry, but her pain and trauma certainly is.

I hope she can find healing and peace. That's obviously most important. But I hope folks learn the extremely difficult lesson this terrible thing shows.

 

I have no place to speak on it really, but I think it only feels that way because the conversation has been thrust into the forefront. We lived in ignorance of it for a while, we are living through the reckoning now, and I do think a productive group of passionate people can repair and rebuild. We can't abandon something we love in the name of shitty men trying to take it away. That's how I feel, atleast

 

Would you be able to say what labels said this?

 

So saying this is the case, what do we feel is an adequate response from Cam at this point?

 

my opinion is that he’s unsafe for the community, based on this and other things I’ve heard, so I don’t think he should be welcomed in safe spaces. The other tweet by his ex confirmed some other things I’ve heard and he probably seems like a risky person to have around

However, something that I’ve been thinking about and don’t know how to really handle, is cases in which this sort of thing comes out without then victims wanting to. I was talking a similar case through recently with a friend, where he was thinking of exposing his ex for being abusive but wasn’t sure if he should or not. I told him that the point of exposing someone should be to either benefit you or society, whether it takes a weight off your shoulders or protects others from their behavior. If you don’t think this person should face consequences, don’t expose them. So I’m trying to figure out how to handle situations where the person is exposed but maybe the victim doesn’t want there to be consequences. I’m not sure this scenario fits, and I get there are times where knowing someone might be a danger means we shouldn’t include them, but for one time offenders (which I don’t meverssarily believe cam is) who get exposed against the victim’s wishes? I don’t know

 

Warning: This is tough to read. It belongs here though.

Looks like I'm never listening to "At Best Cuckold" ever again. Fuck this guy

 

I’m so sorry that happened and that your friends did that to you. This really sums up a lot of how I feel about maintaining friendships with abusers. I definitely look at people differently if they choose to keep some like that in their lives.

It’s a little bit like still listening to the music of an abuser, where it’s one thing to keep it on your phone and play it by yourself without bringing anyone else into it and another entirely to still post about your love of them online or wear their merch or pay money to see them. If you do maintain a connection with an abuser it should be in a way where no one who was hurt by them should ever have to see or hear about it, and not something that you flaunt ever.

A fairly unrelated personal story, someone I knew growing up who worked at my summer camp ended up going to prison for abusing girls at his church, and our entire friend group had to deal with that and move forward together. It was really tough to go through but we all got past it and cut off any ties we had. A bunch of us went to a mutual friend’s house later that year and they had a giant Christmas card with his face plastered on it prominently displayed on the mantel right when you walked into the house. It was such a small thing but every single person there felt immediately uncomfortable and upset, and it sent a message that subtly changed how we all felt about them and to some degree still does even now. Their decision to keep him in their lives was problematic enough even if it had been private, but to force everyone else to look at it was what really felt inappropriate.

 

wow, I used to listen to this band a fucking lot

 

Same here. I haven't in maybe 2 years though.

Going back and reading some of his lyrics and I'm pretty shocked. They are strangely sexual.

Also has a song "She Is Seventeen"...

 

holy shit, him?!?! He didn’t he do the show with emperor x @nfdv2

 

Yes

That's pretty horrifying

 

I’ve never heard of him beyond maybe reading the name somewhere, but that album title is absolutely awful and the review I just read seems like lyrically he has always had a ton of red flags. It’s a positive review but talks about him being pervy and making you wince, and just generally playing up being immature. That account of what he did is really horrifying. The person who wrote it commented that someone has shown it to him, so I hope they aren’t being attacked by him now.

 

Thanks for sharing this, and I’m sorry you went through that. I was looking for some insight and you provided it. I really do appreciate it and it gives me new perspective to consider.

 

It was one of those albums I would put on because it sounded good. Never thought about the lyrics really and definitely not the title. I didn't know the term "cuckold" in 2014.

 

ugh ugh ugh this is truly disgusting

 

What the fuuuuuck?! I have no idea who this guy is honestly, but what a piece of shit. That is so fucked.

 

I totally remember that album being weirdly sexual and at a young age I probably couldn't decipher it was unhealthy. Truly disgusting

 

The girl also posted pictures of a ton of messages he sent her and it's disturbing as fuck.

 

Wow I've never heard anything else about him to be honest so this is super surprising.

 

so the initial r/emo thread about cam was pretty decent but whoof there's another one about it on that sub where the real pieces of shit are coming out with their "well actually it wasnt rape because...." rhetoric and im reminded again why the music subreddits are hell on earth

 

Yeah I stopped reading the comments because it turned into r/BrandNew basically.

 

That's also currently happening in the newspost here