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General Politics Discussion (V) [ARCHIVED] • Page 7

Discussion in 'Politics Forum' started by Melody Bot, Mar 27, 2018.

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  1. David87

    Prestigious Prestigious

    I can tell you from a ton of experience, including my own personal experience, that 17 year olds are not even in the same solar system as 22 year olds when it comes to awareness of, well, just about anything, let alone political topics that require more nuance and research.

    I was way, way, way, way, more informed by 22 than I was at 17 or 18. And it didn't happen from people yelling at me.
     
  2. iCarly Rae Jepsen

    run away with me Platinum

    I understand it's impossible to approach parkland or Sandy Hook rationally and not just be like all the guns go in the toilet until kids stop dying and I honestly don't know the right approach to gun control
     
    EarthShifts likes this.
  3. St. Nate

    LGBTQ Supporter (Lets Go Bomb TelAviv Quickly) Prestigious

    But it's not yelling. It's an informed 22 year old trying to inform 17 and 18 year olds and apparently folks much older than that.


    It ain't an "attack," it provides information to back up it's points, and being called ableist is not insult same way being called racist or sexist is not an insult.
     
  4. incognitojones

    Some Freak Supporter

    I forgot to sub and was wondering why it was so quiet in the world
     
    Turkeylegz, Robk, Jason Tate and 7 others like this.
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  6. if they're incapable of nuance and research why are they writing a manifesto? does that not seem the kind of thing that would necessitate nuance and research? I think they are capable of those things which is why I don't have a problem with the idea of 17 or 18 year olds writing up political proposals and being criticized. If you think they're incapable of such, how can you support them having any major political influence at all? There's no other political context where you would completely excuse lack or research or nuance
     
  7. Btw, the answer to "you really think the FBI would do that awful thing?" is always yes
     
    Zoshchenko and incognitojones like this.
  8. lightning

    *

    I have no idea how his tweets are yelling. What constitutes yelling in this case?
     
  9. David87

    Prestigious Prestigious

    Yeah, and I expect grown adults to understand that. And I will even be patient enough to explain that to them even though I have no sympathy for adults who don't understand that yet.

    I don't expect 17 year olds to understand that. A lot of them can and will take it as an insult because the literally don't have and never bothered to read up on the background knowledge that would be required to understand that.
     
    RyanPm40 and Grapevine_Twine like this.
  10. Grapevine_Twine

    It's a Chunky! Supporter

    Because they were in a school where 17 people were killed and they want to do something productive and make their voices heard. Pretty simple answer.

    A lot of people in this thread are forgetting what it was like to be 17.
     
  11. St. Nate

    LGBTQ Supporter (Lets Go Bomb TelAviv Quickly) Prestigious

    Well if we can't criticize someone or inform someone of something they don't have knowledge of out of fear that they take it as insult well Goddamn.
     
  12. Dominick

    Prestigious Prestigious

    I mean, if the person has traumas as a result of the systems that of enshrined violence in a particular way and are seen as violent people as a result, then I think the kids might understand. They’re not the only ones that need to be understood and fought for.
     
    EarthShifts and Wharf Rat like this.
  13. Grapevine_Twine

    It's a Chunky! Supporter

    I am currently at school struggling to get my 16 year old students to understand a simple New York Times article. So I guess I’m impressed that a group of teenagers (that went through a traumatic experience and have been constantly subjected to criticism and hate because they are using their voices) put together a *mostly* good manifesto.
     
    Robk, dorfmac, Jason Tate and 4 others like this.
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  15. Grapevine_Twine

    It's a Chunky! Supporter

    I think there’s a difference between “criticism”/ “informing someone” and the dogpile of messages and tweets they’ll see on Twitter telling them how wrong and ableist they are
     
    Robk and David87 like this.
  16. David87

    Prestigious Prestigious

    Because they experienced a traumatic event and, as much as we all like to think we're above it, appeals to emotion can work in public policy debates. It's especially effective when the people who are appealing to emotion also have some actual tangible ideas behind their appeals to emotion. There are tons and tons of people and voters who also don't have the nuances of every individual policy down yet still write, pass, propose them, and/or the vote for the people that write/pass/propose them. Why even let those people vote, if they don't have the knowledge down? Why let them run for office?

    They are capable of learning how to do those things, and it's something they are still learning and will continue to learn how to do into their college years. But being dishonest about these being simply "critiques" and not attacks on their ideas as a whole, especially in the mind of a 17 year old and how they will perceive being told they're "scapegoating the victims of violence", is not going to help them learn how to do it. First they need to actually learn about these separate issues i.e. gun control, imperialism, military industrial complex, social justice issues, abelism etc, and then learn about things like ableism and what it means, and then you learn about how certain language can feed into those things, etc. is how they're going to learn. And yes, you are correct, twitter is not the medium for this to happen in. But it certainly is a good medium for turning people into stubborn defensive assholes who no longer wish to hear your critiques anymore.

    Maybe trial by fire via the interwebs will work for a few people where they're actually inspired to look into these things and read up on them after being bashed on social media for their stances, but I think the chances of that are low, especially with children, who will def react more often with more gut emotion rather than self evaluation and contemplation.
     
  17. cshadows2887

    Hailey, It Happens @haileyithappens Supporter

    Saying "this manifesto is bad and ableist" and "this manifesto has some ideas that are bad an ableist" has an important distinction that everyone's just conveniently talking past.
     
    Robk, Jason Tate, littlejohn and 6 others like this.
  18. David87

    Prestigious Prestigious

    Yes.
     
  19. no shit, but there's no inherent value in that if what they're proposing is bad. you can't have it both ways with "they're young and incapable of coming up with better researched, more nuanced proposals" and "any criticism of them that doesn't involve a semester long lesson plan is counterproductive."

    one of their proposals will directly lead to more cops in schools which means more black students getting brutalized and punitively arrested. that's another, larger, more marginalized group of students who have suffered violence in their schools who would be actively harmed by this proposal. their voices aren't heard.
     
  20. St. Nate

    LGBTQ Supporter (Lets Go Bomb TelAviv Quickly) Prestigious

    I think what matters is the content which is criticism and information (note no quotations) whether it's a series of tweets or an article in the Guardian. He's not insulting. He does not call into question their age and bludgeons them with it or uses their youth to devalue their experiences or position.
     
    lightning and Wharf Rat like this.
  21. Zilla

    Trusted Supporter

    Didn’t someone post a tweet the other telling Gonzalez that her ideas were bad and she should eat shit?
     
    Jason Tate and WordsfromaSong like this.
  22. Grapevine_Twine

    It's a Chunky! Supporter

    Criticism is fine. Their manifesto deserves criticism, and there are major major flaws. It sucks that it isn’t perfect. But social media criticism turns into hate very quickly, which is what I worry this will become.
     
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  24. Grapevine_Twine

    It's a Chunky! Supporter

    This makes sense to me:

     
  25. Zip It Chris

    Be kind; everyone is on their own journey.

     
  26. lightning

    *

    ...i don't know who posted that. but even if so, what's your point. there are probably dozens of people who say shit like that. there are hundreds of millions of people on twitter.
     
    RyanPm40 and Wharf Rat like this.
  27. lightning

    *

    what about what's been said in this thread, including the tweets that have been posted, do not make sense, in so that this does?
     
    Wharf Rat likes this.
  28. Grapevine_Twine

    It's a Chunky! Supporter

    It says explicitly in the tweet that the blame lies on those who published this, presumably without explaining the nuance to the teenagers who wrote it. I see people blaming children, on here and on Twitter.
     
    Jason Tate and David87 like this.
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