Pinegrove - Skylight (September 28, 2018) Album • Page 19

What's the point of all this if rehabilitation is never in the cards? How do we make our scene better without it

 

I must say, I do wish we focused more on rehabilitation than punishment sometimes, especially in cases like this when it's arguably not like he is a predator.

 

I'm sure things will come out in the coming days.. and it's fine to "get help" on a personal level but also we probably just need musicians that flat out don't have problems abusing people imo

 

Yeah, this has been the hardest thing for me to wrap my head around yet: the relationship with a fan. On one hand, I'm sure many people could meet a fan, fall in love, and live happily ever after. I think saying flat out "that behavior is toxic and they can never have a good relationship because of that dynamic" is short sighted.

on the other hand... It just seems like it would be really hard to have that type of relationship.

 

I apologise for offending your sensibilities - but in my world (and perhaps due to a limited vocabulary), I refer to a person who sleeps with a member of a band a 'groupie'

The world is built upon a constant power imbalance - People are attracted to other people because of what they represent, what they earn, how it elevates their own social status. To think that this is an issue which exists purely within the world of Emo/Indie Rock is short-sighted and frankly wrong.

Unfortunately, we can't all have 'Hallmark' relationships which blossom naturally and exist in a power vacuum.

 

I would like to read the other side of the story. Until then, we can't be sure about anything. I'm a bit disappointed but at least he realised this was a problem early in their career and is getting help.

 

Well I'll wait til that comes out to cast further judgement because right now I dont find this to be on the level of any other case we've seen lately.


But the reality is musicians who are humans have problems with it, it's happening all over society. If even the least extreme cases aren't given a chance at rehabilitation then idk that's sad to me.

 

idk why but I'm interested in seeing in Nandi says anything. Especially since Petal is talking about this and Half Waif and Petal were just on tour together.

 

I think the biggest problem we have right now, in general, is everyone want's everything to be black and white. Is Evan right or wrong? Can Pinegrove come back or not? But when it comes to power dynamics between fans/artists, how to have a consensual encounter under those circumstances, etc. are entirely gray areas. Going too far either way (an artist should never be allowed to have relations with a fan vs. an artist should always be allowed to pursue a fan) is a disservice to women, at least from my perspective. But I'm also not a woman so maybe it's not my place to even comment.

It's easy with Jesse Lacey - an adult abusing a power dynamic for sexual relations with a minor is unquestionably wrong. This one is not as clear.

 

Yeah regardless of what pretty much anyone has said in this thread, the only thing that really matters is whether or not Evan is being fully transparent. If he's not, that's a big problem and I will have to seriously evaluate the prospect of listening to Pinegrove again. If he is, the steps he's taking imo are commendable.

 

Imo Evan should not have made a Facebook post. 99% of the time the offender should not make a social media post. These things need to be dealt with privately. Approach the victim and apologize, and let the victim come forward themselves if they do choose. Otherwise the offender controls the narrative and in a case like this where no accusations were made publicly that's shady as hell.

 

I'm in a band that I want to be my full time job... so this whole year has been a time for me to pay close attention and make sure to learn in situations like this how to behave responsibly, should my tunes end up catching on nationally. Humans naturally crave validation and attention, and it's scary how many grey areas people seem to become complicit with when they receive an addictive amount of it, especially while simultaneously no one is doubting their integrity.

I don't ever see myself abdicating my moral values when it comes to humanity and relationships. But I'm sure a lot of musicians who got themselves into trouble chasing sex and admiration never saw themselves getting to that point when they were smaller bands either.

 

Which is the conversation we're having here. It's always gonna be murky and really has to be taken as a case by case basis based on the artists interactions and intentions with said fan. There's no good answer.

Also sorry if I came across as hostile, there's been a lot of people coming out of the woodwork trying to undermine the importance of these conversations and let abusers get off since the whole Jesse Lacey thing. I don't think I've ever seen you on the site so my first reaction was one of defensiveness.

"Groupie" is a word that has almost always been used to undermine and degrade women, particularly women caught in the power dynamics in question here. I'd recommend retiring that word, but that's just my opinion.

 

Good point, it seems like there’s an unspoken “waiting game” for allegations from someone to arise, when the onus should not be put on them to do it

 

There’s obv no issue with mutually consenting adults getting romantic, but again yeah, sleeping with a fan seems kind of unethical in a sense. Not as much of an “organic” development as much as it already starts uneven idk this whole thing is confusing as shit

 

Went to Reddit to see what that vibe was like... yeah...

 

I realized my initial reaction of "it doesn't seem that bad" was probably the point of him getting out in front of whatever it was that went down and trying to make it seem not so bad. Which is pretty insidious but I'll wait til more info comes out to see if that's truly the case but right now the more I think about it the worse this seems to me. Which doesn't go against my point of rehabilitation, I hope he is truly getting the help he needs and is committed to changing. Hopefully in the course of therapy he learns what he did by controlling the narrative out of the gate.

 

Toxic and terrible I imagine? Just like Reddit is 99% of the time?

 

Yeah this just feels super fishy to me. Good to see others were initially confused because I know reading the statement the first time it felt like "you entered a consensual relationship after the girl had apprehension...so what?"

 

No problem - My use of the word was probably a little inflammatory

One of the problems is that each person on the site has a different set of morals and ethics. I certainly wouldn't consider Evan to be an 'abuser' in any sense of the word, but some people will.

 

The growing chorus of women from the scene who seem to be indirectly referencing Evan's statement is making me really uneasy. His decision to cancel the tour also kind seems extreme based on the statement he made. If there is more to this, then Evan's statement will end up being one of the most vile of them all.

I know I said we shouldn't speculate. Sorry for the hypocrisy but evidence seems to be piling up that there's more to this.

 

Also one of my least least least favorite parts of artists getting outed is when people use it as a platform to say "I never liked them anyway" or some obnoxious shit like that. Losers.

 

Yeah the longer this one sits the more uneasy I get.

 

Also going back to his remark about girls in crowds; that shit is disgusting and reprehensible. But at the same time I feel like thoughts like that are far more deep seated than simply being a horny creep, especially if you've been bullied from a young age.

Speaking from personal experience, being told you're a loser that no girl would ever want to be with fucking sucks, and as a musician myself I'd be lying if I didn't see positive reaction to my music as some sort of validation in that department. So yeah, I've definitely thought "maybe that cute girl will like me more because I'm in a band". It's pretty gross and something I'm really not proud of whatsoever but hey. Trying to be better here.

Also not trying to make excuses for Evan's behavior. If your response to seeing a girl dancing in the crowd to your music is "she wants to have sex with me", fuck that. Fuckkkk that.

 

I'm sorry but I don't find this that gross? Isn't that what drives so many things we do in life? Is this any different than wanting a better job and more money to increase your chances of finding companionship?

edit: this is a good post, btw