The Christian Music Thread Genre • Page 17

Yes, I do really respect the reformed perspective - it's definitely not as popular in the circles I've grown up in in the UK but I've read and studied it as a student (from a historical perspective). Even though it's not where I land, I'm definitely in the camp that thinks we're all in it together as Christians and I love and respect everyone - and I want to learn!

I'm also not at all an advocate of attraction-based churches/ministry. I'm much more of a 'get out there and live a missional life' Christian. I am becoming increasingly sceptical of attractional models. A lot of hype but no substance. I understand that Shai Linne may have this concern - but is this really happening? Again, not listened to many Reach artists but when I read through Lecrae's more recent lyrics I'm seeing a lot of substance and depth.

I also agree with your assessment of the metal scene - it's never going to be a great thing when there's nothing to distinguish between one artist from another in terms of lifestyle. But let me get this straight... is this actually happening in the CHH world? Are they partying, drinking etc? Or just not rapping as much about faith?

I read Shai Linne's Tweets - very insightful. It seems as though the 'confusion' is what he seems to be challenging. Again, it does probably come down to theology - I understand that some of the changes he describes in that Twitter post could be scary for him but they're not things that concern me. Yes, it does appear sincere and I can see what he is saying but I would still maintain it's misguided. In fact, the song is calling out certain people whereas he moves to a more 'we' focus (I'm part of this problem, we all need to repent etc.). I think the song would be more palatable if it had more of that humility throughout. And to be honest, this comes back to why I don't enjoy his music - it often comes across like this to me. As opposed to Beautiful Eulogy who are probably the easiest like for like comparison.

In regards to the confusion:

Why is this confusing? Are they really not preaching the gospel with their new approach? I can think of several different ways that I've 'preached the gospel'. Sometimes with words, sometimes with actions, sometimes from stages, sometimes in a one-on-one conversation. Just because there's a change in emphasis in lyrics to the way you perhaps think it should be done doesn't mean that it's confusing or indeed wrong.

I can understand his perspective a lot more in these Tweets but I don't think this came across in the song. The second Tweet isn't something that concerns me or confuse me but I can see how this relates to the criticism of attraction-based ministry. I wish he'd been more explicit about this in the lyrics of the song though.

I disagree with this as I have no problem listening to artists that aren't Christians or don't have 'Christian lyrics', even if some of it questions God. I can understand that some Christians believe that you shouldn't listen to Christian music so fair enough, rappers recommending these kind of artists would be a concern for them. Is it confusing? No, it probably means they have a different theological perspective about music/art and are happy/ at peace making those recommendations. Could this have a good impact for the gospel? Again, there are many perspectives here so trying to be neutral I can see where both parties are coming from.

I don't really know the context here, nor does Shai give context so it's hard to comment. We could say that if you are following Jesus you clearly have an added blessing of eternal life. However, we could argue that Christ freely died for all - therefore that blessing is equally available to all of humanity. (I know we're heading into territory where some people would argue there is an 'elect' and some are predestined... therefore equal blessings are not available for everyone! But whilst I respect that perspective, it's not how I interpret those scriptures.) It's hard to fully work out what he's trying to say in this Tweet, it's confusing (joke intended). If someone's theological perspective has changed, talking to them, listening and trying to understand is a more productive way. It's not a matter of 'right' or 'wrong'. It's impossible to have a completely 'right' view of the Bible (again, the reformed perspective might disagree with that but unless you speak/read fluent biblical Greek and Hebrew I'm not sure how someone can maintain that position completely.) Is it possible that a group of people have a different perspective on God's blessings? Sure. Is it possible that that has changed from their previous position? Sure. Is it confusing? Not to me. My beliefs have changed and will continue to change over the years until the day I die. I'd expect everyone's beliefs to mature as they develop through prayer, reading the Scripture and interacting with God. I want to listen and learn and understand, even those I disagree with. (I hope I am doing that now by the way and I'm sorry if I'm not!)

First, there's a huge assumption that there is an error here. However, I do think he has a good point and it's a point that you referenced as well. It might be the right direction for this generation of Reach rappers. It might be productive for the gospel. But if the newcomers come into that it might be that they forget where they have come from (because they aren't aware of it etc.). As you said, it'll be interesting to see what's happening in five years time..

There's lots more I could reflect on. It is fascinating. Particularly that people are calling him a 'hater'. I wouldn't want to do that. I just think it's misguided and counterproductive.

One thing I would argue is that if he is such good friends is the song necessary? I know there are scriptural accounts of accountability and debate, particularly in Acts with Paul calling out Peter or in the Gospels with Jesus exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees/Sadducees. But is the modern day equivalent writing a song to them? I'm not sure it is. Yes, he Tweeted that he sent the lyrics to Trip in advance, but I'd much rather this kind of debate was done in a different way. Both the mediums that Shai has chosen lead to more confusion - 140 character Tweets to clarify lyrics that were clearly vague enough that they needed clarification.

Yes, he said it's public because they're public figures, but you'd think if they were good enough friends he would have been having this conversation about what he calls an 'error' for years. If he's been having healthy dialogue for years with his friends at Reach and those friends have continued to go their own way then they clearly feel that the direction they've taken is the right way for them, their music and their ministry. Fair enough, Shai Linne is welcome to call that out but it kind of undermines the point that it's not a 'diss' or 'beef'.

To not be able to understand the direction they've taken and to label it as 'confusing' seems a bit narrow minded even if he has healthy concern. He might believe he's 'moderating' the direction of ministry, but an element of critiquing art and laying a claim on what constitutes as 'preaching the Gospel' hasn't been completely avoided. It's probably that element that I find so disappointing and ultimately counterproductive. I don't think he comes across well in this, despite having a sincere heart in his Tweets.

Overall, you're right, we don't know his heart. We don't know the Reach Records and their heart either. I personally don't know as much about CHH as others. But, personally, it's not the way I like to see public figures go about theological / ministry disagreements. I wish them all the best though!

And as you said, it'll be interesting to see where CHH goes in the next five years.

Sorry this turned out longer than I expected!

Excited for the Beautiful Eulogy album too. Maybe we'll be debating some incredibly controversial lyrics from them before the year is out.

 

This was an incredibly thought out and long reply that I currently don't have a chance to reply to, but I wanted to let you know that I've read all of it and I'd like to reply to some thoughts when I have more time to. I agree in how fascinating it is to see this sort of conversation happen in the public sphere though, and maybe that's why he decided to make the song. I think your assessment that when he was better articulated in his tweets it made more sense and came off way more humble than he did in the song.

 

Thanks. I actually had an interesting time of reflection last night before I got into bed. I was thinking "Why has this irked me so much that I feel the need to express my opinion in such depth?" I had to confront my emotions and realise it must have frustrated me to a certain degree that I would write such a lengthy post!

I was challenged to think the following: although I claim I am setting out to learn (which is why I'm interested to hear your opinion and the opinion of others) spending such a time evaluating what has gone on is clearly laced with my own theological lens and perspective. So although I want to learn and understand the other perspectives, my response could come across to some people as a bit too critical. Not saying that you think that as I know you enjoy a theological discussion but I am sorry for the many areas where I haven't expressed the humility we so eagerly demand of the more public Christian figures. Debate and discussion in the church is healthy and I think I wanted to show that there are other ways of looking at the things Shai Linne raises but I just want to throw out my (now) conscious bias in this conversation and where, even when I am trying to have that healthy discussion, I easily fall into divisive ways of talking/thinking.

No pressure to rush to a response but I look forward to hearing more and truly finding a place of constructive dialogue.

 

Been listening to the new John Mark McMillan album since Friday. It's out on September 1st but you can still get access to it early via PledgeMusic. I really do love JMM and it's been great to hear these new songs.

 

I really need to buy this one. the new songs he's released so far sound like everything I want.

was also thinking last night about how he could maybe use a tour outside of the CCM market. I feel like a tour with Noah Gundersen could turn out pretty well and gain him a new audience, but don't know who would headline in that situation.

 

He was "interviewed" in the last BC podcast. He had some interesting stuff to say, and it seems like a great guy.

 

Yeah, I definitely think he is accessible to people out the Christian market. He doesn't really fit in the generic CCM market but has found his place. Didn't he tour with Josh Garrels earlier this year and they he has Kings Kaleidoscope and The Brilliance out with him for this album tour. He puts on a great show anyway. I think Live At The Knight may possibly be my favourite release. (I may have said that a few months ago!)

I have this queued up to listen to tomorrow! Always enjoy his BC pod interviews. This must be at least the third time he's been on it.

 

I've been singing this since last week, pardon me for bringing this thread back. Have a good night sleep.

 

I've never really enjoyed Hillsong's music. I do like this song but not this version.

 

Dude so what are your thoughts? Are you liking his new direction?

 

Loving it. For me it feels like a natural progression from Borderland so it doesn't feel exactly like a 'new direction'. I know others may disagree. I think musically it's excellent. Such a great sound, really catchy in places. Lyrically I want to dive in a bit more but some have really hit me already. He's always creative in his lyrics and I like this.

 

Yeah definitely. From the four singles I've heard so far they sound like a natural progression from Borderland to me. I guess I meant to say less "worshipy" if that makes any sense. I've had friends say this album seems weird haha, but I'm super excited for it. I really hope his lyrics still get me though. He's super creative, a song like Heart Won't Stop for example. Super simple, but dang hits me like a brick.

 

Yes, there's only one track that is more on the worship end so they're right there - it's less traditional worship sounding (although his worship songs are never 'traditional' I guess!) I liked that he said in the Bad Christian interview that he sat down with the producer and he's always felt like he had to have at least one worship song as it helps with money and the producer said "yeah, but no one really plays Future / Past in churches do they? Let's just make the record you want to without the pressure." It definitely feels like that.

The lyrics have a more questioning element to them but that fits perfectly with where I'm at. Hopefully you'll enjoy it. I guess there's nothing as directly catchy/singable as a song like 'Heart Won't Stop' or 'Future / Past' so that could impact your enjoyment... but I'm surprised that people have said it's weird - my opinion would be that it's a really cohesive sounding album. It's still got catchy elements, it's just often the music drawing you in here. I hope that makes sense! Let me know when you get to hear it!

I'm going on a long drive down to the south of the UK on Friday and I have a feeling that this will be a perfect driving album. If you've heard the four singles then you'll know that No Country was written to be on a driving playlist!

 

Feel like this song/release statement fits in with the conversation about Shai Linne and Reach Records:

 

I've been jamming Andy Mineo and Wordsplayeds mixtape under the name Magic & Bird. It's pretty great. Anyone else been listening to it?

 

I keep meaning to check it out.

Have you seen that Andy Mineo features on the new Kings Kaleidoscope mixtape too? (Out Friday)

 

Definitely do!

And nah I haven't. That's pretty sweet!

 

Hmm this is all interesting. I really need to listen to that interview on Bad Christian. Thanks for all the heads up, can't wait to listen to it!

 

The Beauty Between is fantastic! I'm really excited for their mixtape. Didn't think I would get new Kings so soon

 

The interview really is a worthwhile listen. He talks about what he calls a 'faith crisis' that he went through over the last few years and how the album was born out it.

I'm still enjoying the album!

 

I like this new Kings Kaleidoscope project a lot. I think they're one of the most unique and talented bands in Christian music rn.

Last year was huge for me in the Christian scene (Kings K, Needtobreathe, Future of Forestry, the Gungor suite of albums, etc) but this year hasn't hit as hard.

I have JMM on my radar, but am I sleeping on any other more maximalist rock/pop sounding Christian stuff from this year?

 

Heard Kings mixtape twice already and I think I now have a Kings songs I dislike unfortunately. Alive just isn't doing it for me and having all those different rappers brings the song down. Propaganda kills it in his though! Overall the mixtape is pretty good, seems like they had fun with it.

 

Man Kings go Bon Iver for like 20 seconds lol I dig it

 

Not sure what you define as maximalist rock/pop (although I'm pretty sure that two of my fav Christian albums from this year (Loud Harp & United Pursuit) don't fit in!) but have you heard Aaron Sprinkle's album Real Life? Not explicitly 'Christian' in the same way as KK, JMM and Gungor but that's the only one I can think of. I guess you could throw in Paramore's latest release as well if Sprinkle fits in.

Haven't checked out KK as I'm away and can't download! But I'm still jamming JMM a lot.

 

I saw Loud Harp live twice over the weekend at a Christian worship festival here in the UK. It was incredible. They're really something else and let their songs breathe - some of them ended up being 20 minutes with a few spontaneous bits. Great, honest music. One of my favourite moments of the weekend. I would love a live album from them someday.

It was great to be led by a few other notable artists. I enjoyed Pat & Kirby from Housefires, Amanda & Steffany from Bethel Music and Jonathan David & Melissa Helser.

Basically there is non-stop worship going on for 72 hours from Friday afternoon to Monday afternoon. They have some slots for bigger names such as the ones listed above but then smaller churches or bands play slots across the day and through the night so that there's constant praise and worship ongoing. It's a beautiful time and a great atmosphere with 5,000 people seeking God and offering a sacrifice of praise.

Some good UK artists that are worth checking out that you may not be familiar with:

Lucy Grimble - soulful, jazzy, gospel sound. Her live album 'Created To Worship' is highly recommended.
Danny O'Callaghan - in a live setting he is really passionate and often leads times of intercession within his songs. Powerful experience.
Rich & Lydia Dicas - they are about to release an EP but what I like about this couple is that they have both worked at missionaries so their worship music doesn't forget the poor, the alone, the downtrodden and the neglected. This can often be forgotten in mainstream worship music so it's a good (and challenging) experience listening to them.