Manchester Orchestra - A Black Mile to the Surface (July 28, 2017) Album • Page 82

Yeah that's tone policing

 

So you can't educate people on social issues without being nasty about it? Idk personally for me I have a different belief

 

No one was nasty until they tried brushing the conversation aside. If you can't understand why that would elicit the reaction it did then we need to have a talk.

 

I get where you're coming from man, I really do. That being said I do think that user was basically wanting to shut down the conversation entirely and implying that it wasn't as important as the conversation about the album, so for that reason I understand why the reactions weren't the most civil. I was pretty annoyed myself even though I wasn't really sure what to contribute at the time.

 

no one in this thread has been nasty or aggressive except for that boldtitan guy and he now feels the need to play victim which isnt cool. i dont know the guy all that well and i dont want them to feel like they cant post here or that we all hate them or something but it certainly isnt fair to detract from a very important conversation and attempt to shut it down then turning around and saying we attacked him.

 

All I'm saying is the same things could have been said in a way that made them feel less attacked

 

Basically this. I feel like the conversation was extremely civil for almost the entire time and was important to have, it really only got hostile when, like you said, someone tried to argue that it wasn't a conversation that needed to be had here.

 

All I'm saying is they could have not tried to detract from an important conversation

 

And I know what you're thinking, why can't both be true? Because what you're saying wouldn't have even happened if what I'm saying hadn't happened.

 

if he had just casually kept talking about the album that would be one thing. like i get it this is a thread for the album and some of us are in here hyping up the album plus a new single just got released. thats well and good, but to try and shut down an important conversation that just so happens to involve this band isnt cool

 

Like I said there's many cases where I would probably be agreeing with you 100%... there have been times on here where other users have said I'm trying to "see the other side" too much, and honestly that usually comes from a belief I still have that it's important to give people a chance to expound on their views or engage calmly before trying to shut them down. Point being, in this case I still think a lot of the reactions were justified given the nature of the discussion. I do get where you're coming from and I don't have any ill will towards BoldTitan at all, but I completely understand why people reacted how they did.

 

I do think there's a certain irony about arguing for more civil discourse when the person in question was essentially trying to shut down discourse about a particular subject himself. Idk just my two cents.

 

I feel very differently after reading the other side of the story, but to negate the importance of the discussion is incredibly harmful and directly contributes to ppl brushing aside assault so I have no issue saying that dude should fuck riiiiiiight off - there will be plenty of pages to discuss the record along with the goddamn 70 pages where said discussion was carried prior

 

I am done talking about it but basically I was just saying maybe we could have been a bit more forgiving knowing that it was a new user. Not everyone in the world is as educated on social issues as a lot of people on this site, so we can attack them hard and have them leave or we can treat them with respect and give them a chance to educate themselves.

 

I probably should have gone about it in a different way.

It seemed as though I was being grouped with other people who were victim blaming or throwing out 99% stats, which I do not believe.

I agree with all of your thoughts on abuse. I work with foundations that combat abuse against women.

I don't believe that me attempting to keep the peace meant that I don't think abuse is a valid discussion ever. Just in this specific instance, and in this specific thread.

I understand why you could all feel a different way. I meant no harm towards the victim or any of you.

 

no one was attacked and we were all respectful teebs what are you on about. if a user feels the need to leave because someone told them to stop taking away from an important conversation thats on them

 

we were not grouping you with victim blaming, but you werent "attempting to keep the peace" by trying to sweep aside an important conversation that rightfully deserved to be taking place in this thread. theres literally nothing wrong with us wanting to spread the word in this thread while others continue to talk about the band or this album.

 

they weren't even attacked hard. and it seems they're very educated on social issues. so again your argument comes down to tone policing, which i am not cool with.

 

Yea I guess so, I know he felt attacked, so that's my main thing, if he felt attacked than to me that means that we could have done a better job to prevent that. In my real life I'm a known people pleaser it's gotten me into some sticky situations, I guess you can't always make everyone happy. I don't want to distract from the positive conversations in the thread so I'm going to back off on the subject.

 

Sent you a private message we can discuss there.

 

@teebs41 not trying to come down on you here because I know you mean well but even if someone is ignorant to issues of abuse (which I refuse to believe anybody in this conversation is) that does not mean we as a community don't have a responsibility to absolutely squash anybody trying to trivialize those issues, this album is not more important and it will never ever ever be

 

First, I'd say the issue in this sort of dialogue is the acknowledgment that false accusations represents .01% of the cases of domestic abuse, then going on to talk about hypotheticals actually re-centers the sexist/misogynistic view. Given that we know how domestic violence operates, speaking in hypotheticals about what may happen as it relates to specific events subtly undermines a discourse in which victims are to be believed. Over the years, one tends to notice this maneuver, particularly when discussing rape. There is an acknowledgement of the realities of sexual and domestic violence, but then the speculation begins, which, unconsciously or otherwise, assists in the justification of such acts by virtue of the fact that this could be that .01%. This, in my mind, is why we shouldn't participate in this sort of discussion. Putting that aside, what we also know of domestic abuse is it isn't just a one-time thing, it seeps into all relationships and it often corresponds to the breaking of the partner on a psychological level, thus causing them to defend their abuser at various points. This is why I would not necessarily take the current partner of any abuser at their word when they're discussing the abuse of a previous partner. To the point about believing the victim, this isn't something one just takes on faith, it is rooted in what we know of violence against women, so bringing up the small percentage that do lie underscores the way in which the system so fundamentally is oriented against women, i.e., they become a constant reference against which all claims are used, rather than being viewed as the aberration that they are. Moreover, that their actions may lead to an innocent being harmed, while bad, pales in comparison to the ever-present violence women have to deal with. The structural violence, of which disbelief is a part, continually punishes women, even as they are attempting to seek justice. When a man is cleared of those charges, on the other hand, there is jubilation, not only because he has been made innocent, but also because he has triumphed over a woman who will be the stand-in for every future victim of violence. Given these dynamics, it seems best to continue to believe victims and to continue to support them, and not view their circumstances in isolation, but as part of a broader web of social relations in which violence is a constitutive element of a woman's existence; for even though there is a minor chance that a man may be innocent of whatever crimes of which he is accused by partner, the percentages for that woman, and women in general experiencing some sort of violence, dwarfs that and that's what we need to keep in mind whenever we are looking at situations such as this. Talking to people in the abuser's life, his friends and his families, etc., does nothing to eliminate that. It merely obscures the actual realities of violence against women. How many times, for example, have we seen the friends and families speak passionately about rapists and perpetrators of domestic violence? How many times have we seen women and men buy into a patriarchal ideology in which every single thing an abuser has done has some rationalization? The answer is, we've seen this innumerable times, each of which involved the invocation of sentimentality and warm remembrances as means to obfuscate the violence at the heart of the abuser's actions. That's why it needs to be ignored and we need to return to the fact that domestic and sexual violence is pervasive, that one in five women have been domestically abused, and, in many cases, it goes unreported. These appeals to emotions and slight chances, when viewed in this way, can be dismissed and we can return to supporting and believing these women.

 

Yea I suppose you are right. I guess I believe there are often different ways to go about the same things. I really want to let this go, maybe I was wrong.

 

What chance is there that MO know about all of this drama and are trying to get SB taken off the tour?

 

good post, need to read this over more closely later but lots of excellent points here. I'm not calling them false accusations but I'm at the point where the information I have doesn't make me comfortable calling out either side. Not going to support the band but I'm not going to actively call them out anymore based on what I know. just backing out of here.