Westworld (HBO) TV Show • Page 25

Great ending!! like a legit satisfying ending to this inaugural season.

 

It's unbearable and let's be frank. it seems to be the same posters whining week in and week out

I hope they don't come back next season

 

There are plenty shows that I watch and don't love.... so I don't post in those threads, no reason to push such negative emotions like that

 

Lol I've posted more than enough positive about the show and my questions and complaints are valid. I'm not being incendiary or talking down to anyone, yet somehow I'm the bad person?

 

I think a big problem with the show is the overhanging deus ex machina created by the Ford character (Can totally see the irony in the deus ex machina coming from one of the only humans on the show). It made a lot of the stakes of the show seem lower than they would otherwise. We watch Bernard "die" in the penultimate episode, and yet I felt nothing because I was aware he could come back in a split second. The majority of the finale was spent with me baffled as to whether or not the "escape" was actually happening, in what context and with how much of Ford's control.

Like I said, I understand the necessity of having water cooler moments or reddit theories injected into shows, this show seemed like it was meticulously crafted to be dissected in that regard. But not having any sort of grounding in legitimate rules or worldbuilding just made a lot of events or characterization seem hollow, especially when they could just be running on a track controlled by Ford or we could be seeing a "reverie" created by someone else that didn't actually happen. The repeated revisions of certain scenes in order to show what really happened vs. what was envisioned were particularly clunky and made it hard to truly make sense of the "real" storyline.


If you'd like to engage in the conversation, there's something to chew on. If you want to say it was dope and then plug your ears and cover your eyes at any negative criticism, then ignore the entire post.

 

they used the "this character is actually a different character too!" twist 3 times in the first season, they are really grasping at straws to twist. really the biggest problem with this show is that it takes itself way too seriously and doesn't let the characters or actors have any fun or real interaction it's just brooding monologue after brooding monologue over piano versions of radiohead songs.

 

I think you just want something out of the show that it isn't interested in giving, at least not yet. Like you said that you spent the majority of the finale "baffled" as to whether or not the escape was actually happening, whether it was under Ford's control, etc., but that appears to be exactly what the show was going for. One of the show's main themes is autonomy and free will, and so being unsure whether or not Maeve really is acting of her own newfound free will or whether she is still a puppet on strings (albeit much longer strings than most of the other puppets) creates the tension of the sequence. Will she make it out? What's waiting for her on the other side? Will she murder poor Felix on her way out the door? Is Ford really willing to sacrifice this many of his own employees just to serve his narrative (the answer to this question, we find out, is a resounding "yes"). These are the questions that the writers clearly wanted us to be pondering while she made her escape, thematic ones beneath the surface of the action.

This is, like, the epitome of clockwork narrative series built on a set of rules. I keep seeing people saying that this world has no rules and it honestly baffles me as much as Maeve's non-escape baffled you. And as for worldbuilding, well, one of the other common criticisms I've seen is that this season, now that it's all finished, felt like a prologue for what's to come. And this is one that I happen to agree with, even though I think it's fine to have a prologue season in a planned multi-year narrative. The whole thing was worldbuilding and moving pieces into place for next year (and the years to come). And if that isn't something that you want to see in a show, that's totally fine! Honestly. I can totally see how it lead to much of the season's events feeling like they aren't totally relevant anymore. It's like instead of jumping right into the action and fighting of the Host rebellion we instead watched a prequel season first. And prequels can be boring, especially when one knows where things are ultimately going (i.e. the Hosts break into consciousness and rebel against the humans). So yeah, totally get that. I liked it because I liked the world they built and find this premise incredibly compelling but I can see where others wouldn't.

And again, you know, not to belabor this point or come off as attacking you specifically, but those "negative criticisms" you propounded on the last page of the thread don't all appear to be coming from a position of trying to make fair criticism. It sounds like you disliked the direction the show went or were expecting it to be something else and now are bringing up unimportant questions to make it seem like the show is more full of holes than it is (and it does have some holes, it isn't perfect by any means). Just to answer your questions as best I can:

What happened to Logan? Are we to assume he was left to die?
-No. William staged it to appear as though Logan had basically lost it in the park and was mentally unfit to lead Delos. Then William went home, married Logan's sister, and wormed his way into running the company instead.

It's to be assumed that Maeve's uprising was all planned by Ford to "Distract" the guards so he could kill the Board? Is that what I'm getting?
-Probably. He needed to shut down the control center somehow so that nobody could respond quickly to Dolores' attack. Doesn't mean Maeve's purpose isn't greater or will be revealed in the future.

I still don't understand why they'd add the line of Bernarnold saying that it's happened many times before or w/e.
-I think you're referring to when Bernard said that "This wasn't the first time [Maeve] woke up" or whatever? Because he was referring to the day that the Man in Black murdered her daughter in front of her (remember, MiB said that she was conscious and it's what got him into the hunt for the Maze).

Where/When does the Ford massacre take place?
-The present, at the town where the first incident took place. The one that was buried in the sand when Arnold died but that Ford excavated and rebuilt.

Was the old "Massacre" simply Delores and Teddy killing a bunch of robots? If so, why did that matter?
-Yes, and Arnold. But I don't think they ever referred to that incident as a "massacre," I think it was referred to as an "incident" or a "breakdown" or something like that. Could be wrong though. And it mattered because the co-founder of the park was killed by one of the supposedly safe Hosts right before the park was to be properly launched, scaring away investors. It didn't work, though, because one person's death in an isolated area of the park could be covered up (although I still am skeptical of their ability to entirely erase Arnold's existence). Hence, Ford's plan for a more public display.

When a robot gains sentience, can it kill a human?
-Yes.

How do the weapons there work, are they fake bullets in the world so they can't kill humans?
-The standard issue park weapons don't work when aimed at humans. This was actually one of the big plot holes in the film that they appear to have fixed in the show. In the film, when the breakdown occurs, all of the Host guns start working on humans also. Here, Dolores had to use the same gun she used on Arnold (a real gun) to murder Ford and the other people that night.

Or is there some sort of robot safety?
-It's almost a "3 Laws of Robotics"-type thing embedded in their code. They can't go all the way, even though the further out on the fringes of the park one gets, the more dangerous it gets. In the film, the guns couldn't even shoot anything when pointed at a person; here, it's almost like it's the bullets that are fake, not the guns. As in, when the bullets are shot at a human they don't have much impact and burst into dust, but they are lethal to Hosts. People say several times throughout the season that there are some stakes the farther out from the center one goes (like, the ability to be physically harmed by the hosts in a non-lethal way).

Can humans hurt other humans in WW?
-Yes.

Why did they let William get away with so much abuse to Logan, that seems like a liability on their part. Wouldn't they step in and stop it?
-He saved the park and Logan is essentially a nobody at that point, so he can do what he wants. They were willing to cover up the death of the park's co-founder, I think they'd be alright with the park's financier abusing his dick brother-in-law.

Couldn't Ford have just programmed the robots to kill everyone from the beginning instead of the arduous journey of Maeve becoming fake. If she is still being controlled, why write into her story one of awakening, why not just cause her to kill everyone? Ditto the others?
-No because he was both trying to honor Arnold's wishes that the Hosts be sentient and free from the abuse of the humans, while also ensuring that the Hosts couldn't merely be shut down using one of those tablet things. Or a voice command. Maeve, as of now, was nothing more than a distraction, but even that distraction had to be convincing, apparently. I don't know what "Others" you mean, the other Hosts that broke down? That could be explained by Ford using other hosts to tinker with code changes before moving the perfected changes to Dolores, who was always intended to be the vessel of the rebellion as she was Arnold's favorite.

What can't Ford control? Is the answer he can control everything in the park?
-Yes, everything. Not that it matters anymore, he's dead.

Why didn't he just shoot himself?
-Come on, this one can't be serious.

What is the timeline like for visitors in WW? William and Logan were on their trip for like a month.
-The timeline is by the night, I think, but I'm sure that they offer some kind of special deals for purchasing bulk time. Logan and William were essentially there on business, though, to scope out the park for Delos to potentially invest in it. I would be surprised if they were on a set timeline. Ford probably wanted them to stay as long as they wanted if it meant they'd back the park. And it worked.

If they'd kept Delores alive that whole time, would that mean she wouldn't be in the park for when others arrived? What if someone else paid money to specifically visit the park for Delores, or another specific host, only to have some schmuck on his first time there ruin it for them?
-I was wondering this too! That's a funny thing to think about.

When do trains of visitors arrive? Every morning? Every few?
-Seems like every morning but I'm sure they have slow periods just like any amusement park.

So yeah, a lot went on this season but most of these questions have actual answers or are being kept back because they can't spell everything out for us this soon. It's only the first season, after all. Again though, fine to dislike the show and criticize it, not trying to be one of those people who says "if you don't like it don't say anything." Just be fair.

 

How mad would people be if the Ford that died was just a host replica

 

Pretty mad. I know I would be. I don't think they'd go that route, though, because there is no way Anthony Hopkins signed on for an open-ended or even multi-season television deal. Same goes for Ed Harris.

 

Ed Harris definitely has to return for season two

 

I mean, I'm always of the opinion that no TV character is dead until we see a body. I just don't know how much he would have signed up for.

 

Ed Harris told BBC he'd be back for S2.

I started this on Saturday and finished on Sunday. Kinda lost it's footing in the middle but I pretty much loved every second. Strange to see so many people shitting on it

 

Ed Harris was confirmed as coming back like a week ago.

 

I've tried to avoid news of the show, especially who's coming back, because they're spoilers. So I didn't know any of that re: Ed Harris coming back.

 

Lol at the guy in this thread that defended the show all season until the very best episode.....then throws in the towel. Hahaha.

 

i mean, i'm glad anthony posted that big post and is actually willing to engage, unlike most here who seemingly would rather bury their heads in the sand shouting how great this show is. that being said, a lot of the "answers" you gave for Spo's post are just guesses not really rooted in any evidence provided by the show. i could have answered all of those will the exact opposite answers and they would be as close to the truth as what you said.

the show gave us the answers it chose to give, which is fine - every show does that. but in only giving us answers to questions that were so blatantly obvious for a month and a half now, instead of the issues with actual stakes that were actually interesting, and furthering that by basically making the answers into irrelevant storylines, it's hard not to exit the season without thinking - what was the point of any of this?

 

Come on, that's not constructive to the discussion.

 

hopefully I'll have something going on so I won't be bored enough to watch season 2

 

I don't think a lot of that was speculation, though. The only stuff that we really don't know for sure (outside of the randomly dropped Ashley plot, which I can't believe they didn't address at least in brief during the 1.5 hour finale) is the Maeve thing. And we know Maeve is definitely going to be an important character going forward just based on how much of a focus she was this season and the fact that she's still alive (or...operational? I guess would be the word?). We have a lot of scattered evidence for things like William's descent into becoming the MiB, why the MiB is able to operate with such impunity, why William and Logan were seemingly able to be in Westworld indefinitely, why Ford planned the awakening of Dolores, etc. Or at least I personally felt that we did. Again, everyone's experience with a show like this is highly subjective, and what was enough of an explanation for me is likely to not be enough for someone else. I just thought I'd try to answer the questions as best I could based on what the show gave us.

In any case, this is distracting us from the really important Westworld issues. Like how goddamn on-the-nose it was to make "Bernard Lowe" an anagram of "Arnold Weber." We don't know Arnold's last name yet but, I'll bet any amount of money that that's it. I mean, come on, an anagram? That's some amateurish screenwriting for a group as talented as this show's.

 

After Interstellar, I don't know how talented of a screenwriter Jonathan Nolan really is haha. Much like this show, he seems so consumed with making elements of the show that aren't that important verrrrry deep, yet he completely fumbles the human elements of it.

 

Also I'd still like it to known once more, for the record, that I remain highly skeptical of Delos/Ford's ability to cover up Arnold's death to the point that nobody even knows what he looks like. It's one thing to make it seem like a suicide, another thing entirely to erase his existence such that a Host who looks just like him is working day and night at the park and nobody knows.

 

Because everything else in here is. Don't act so offended.

 

Yeah, Interstellar really falls apart in the last 25 minutes or so. Such a disappointment. I still maintain that it's one of the greatest cinematic experiences I've ever had, from a purely visual standpoint, but the ending was so sappy it really brought down the whole production. It was truly a sight to behold in IMAX, though. When I said "talented writers," though, I meant the whole staff. Nolan and Joy haven't solely written every script for the show.

Also, though, re: the human elements in this show, I think the whole point is that the Hosts are more human than the humans, isn't it?

 

The WestWorld website apparently has a new hidden Easter egg that reveals Elsie is still alive with a location on a map and a hidden recording of her saying "hello?"

 

I think that's the point the show is trying to make, but it does so clumsily. Which one of the robots, outside of Maeve, were we supposed to care about? Did you feel anything when Clementine died? Or when Armistice "sacrificed" herself last night? The show began by saying that anything in the host's backstory can be changed in an instant, like Bernard's memories, so it leaves little grounded elements to attach to. And even Maeve, who seemed to be an anchor all season as the only character the audience is supposed to empathize with, was revealed last night to similarly be under (presumably) Ford's control.