Sexism/Feminism/Womanism Discussion Thread Social • Page 9

That was incredibly hard to watch, but thank you for sharing it. I can relate.

 

I started tearing up before they even read them. Just looking at their faces I was like noooooo

 

I got two minutes in and had to stop watching.

 

Totally understandable to not be able to get through it. It was really rough. On the other hand, I'm glad they didn't stop at the relatively lighthearted/harmless mean tweets that usually get read in those kinds of segments. Stuff like this isn't safe for everyone to watch but it's important for men to have to face it at its ugliest, even if they aren't the ones saying stuff like that on the internet.

 

It's infuriating when something powerful like this then sorta gets reduced to include men. I'm a white man, as is this guy, but sometimes I just want to rip my hair out when men can't just realize the bigger picture/issue and let it just be about women.

 

Why do the worst people online always have a profile picture where an American flag basically vomited on them?

 

or a bald eagle

 

The worst part is that these guys generally ONLY want to talk about men's issues when it's in this context - speaking over women's issues. It helps no one.

 

Also, it's not every podcast because not everyone is this way but I've noticed it a lot lately and it really manifested itself today on the New York Times Popcast about Beyonce's new album. Why do men have women guests on their shows if they're just going to talk over them? Two of the guests were women of color and I really wanted to hear more from them but the men kept talking over them so they'd get either their point across or basically the last word. They weren't arguing or anything but still. It happens all the time on the podcast Get Up On This where the two men hosts always talk over the women, or the women recommend something and start to explain it but the host jumps in and takes over and explains the thing for them. Idk it's really annoying and something that I noticed.

 

In my experience, even men with the best intentions have a very hard time not seeing their opinions as default or expecting deference from women. It's what makes it so hard to trust male allies. (Or any privileged ally in almost any area.)

 

As a bit of a detour in marginally more positive territory, Kesha and Zedd are releasing an album friday:

 

Ah, right, because we have a whole host of slurs gendered against men, and because men receive sexual threats and have a history of being the victims of domestic and sexual violence perpetrated and protected by men. How could I forget

 

I'd like to get some thoughts from some of the regulars in this thread about the ESPN 30 for 30 Fantastic Lies, because your opinions on the subject are certainly more insightful and valuable than mine, which is one reason I rarely post here.
It is a documentary about the Duke lacrosse team rape accusations. Through two hours (aren't most of these 30 minutes?) the documentary paints the lacrosse team as victims of the media and an overzealous prosecutor. The whole thing didn't sit well with me. Most of the POV interviews were parents, players, and defense attorneys. Even the minimal facts that were admitted were troublesome: Roughly 40 white, well off male Duke athletes had a party, hired two black strippers (they constantly refer to the accuser as a stripper), certainly verbally assaulted them and made racist remarks as they left the party. These are our victims for the purposes of the documentary. The conclusion is matter of fact innocence, event though the accuser never recanted her allegations. First of all, it struck me as entirely damaging for the subject of sexual assault as whole to victimize the accused without even getting an interview from the accuser or, for that matter, the prosecution. Also, wouldn't we rather have the onus on these well off student athletes on this subject, who can, and did, hire great defense attorneys? Is it actually bad to have the prosecution believe the accuser? Its troubling to have such a biased take without fully acknowledging the more common horrific circumstances of a rape victim being accused of lying:
An Unbelievable Story of Rape
Where is the 30 for 30 about the Kobe Bryant victim, and how he should be in jail for his ridiculous "mistake" about his understanding of consent?
I looked a little more into it, and it seems the case is not as clear as the doc made it seem:
Remembering (and Misremembering) the Duke Lacrosse Case
This is all even more troubling to me coming from ESPN, a network that often drops the ball on adequately covering physical and sexual abuse towards women by athletes, and also has history of sexual harassment allegations from its staff.

For those that have seen Fantastic Lies: So am I overreacting here? Is it fair for the Duke Lacrosse players to be painted as the absolute victims, and is it okay to criticize the media and the prosecution for believing the victim with such vigor on this subject?

 

I remember the media covering the case as it was being investigated. I was willing to believe the student athletes were guilty due in part to my bias against privileged rich white men. But later I accepted the dropping of the case. Are the students absolute victims? I wouldn't say 100% so, considering they hired strippers for the purpose of their perverse entertainment. We they victims of the media. Sure. As for interviewing the accuser, I believe the end of the doc said she was willing to talk but her prison facility prohibited access.

 

An innocent person falsely accused of rape is absolutely a victim.

 

True. But there's nothing to indicate that's what happened here. The victim never recanted - and to this day maintains that she was assaulted - and there was never a trial.

 

She never recanted, she just changed her story a dozen times, none of which are corroborated by any evidence whatsoever. I wouldn't call that "nothing to indicate that's what happened here". Unless you've uncovered new details?

 

I believe you mean: An innocent person falsely accuse of rape is a rarity.

But, yeah, trauma often affects the memories of survivors of sexual assault.

 

It must affect DNA evidence as well, as a rape kit was properly administered on the night in question.

 

I think you have a rather limited scope of what constitutes sexual assault.

 

Well to be honest, I was simply basing my view on her account(s) of what happened. But if you would like to dispute her claims yourself and produce your own narrative of what happened, be my guest.

 

I do believe some sort of sexual assault occurred. To what extent, I do not know, but I do know it is more complicated than the narrative of a sex worker who simply sought to get revenge through the justice system, particularly given how punishing it can be for the victim. Maybe you don't. My point of contention is holding them up as victims. For the most part, they're privileged white men, whose victory, in the eyes of society, confirmed that they were right to be skeptical of survivors of rape. In other words, they came out of it with more social capital, not less. So, forgive if I would not characterize them as victims. In any case, that's all I have to say on the matter. I would rather not spend anymore time in a thread dedicated to the stories of women arguing about the mythical male victim of rape accusations.

 

So in other words, the events of that particular night are immaterial to the real issue. Regardless of their guilt or innocence of sexual assault, they are very much guilty of being rich white men, therefore deserving of no sympathy or 'victim' classification.

Edit: I'll leave the thread as well, I'm not contributing anything positive by arguing this case.

 

...so, anyway. Moving right along.

I'm glad Kesha is putting out music this week. I hope it's healing for her.

 

Wooohooo!