Logan (James Mangold, March 3 2017) Movie • Page 17

The villains were really bad, that's definitely true. (And just badly written.)

But where I'd argue it missed is in a few places: first, it looked bad. I think the motion blur effects on X-23 were bad, the choreography for the scenes were weak, and they were shot in a way that gave the viewer very little perspective on place or spacing. Often too close and cut to a scene that showed someone die in some "gross" way, compared to how something like John Wick used similar violent scenes, I think it's night and day. And, lastly, I think that the prosthetics looked really bad (X-23 rolling the head) and in some of the most over the top place didn't actually reflect the characters ... that you could have conveyed the exact same thing about the characters with better placed outbursts of violence that actually showed this rage and aggression and where it comes from and then out it manifests itself. I don't think a few extra gore shots did this in a way that a better handling of some of the action scenes could have. And I don't think the movie is worse if remove 3/4s of those specific shots.

I liked the ending scene, but I didn't like the forest battle or fight much at all. The Logan/X-24 fight I found meh. As for the story and script, I think it was pretty flawed. From multiple character motivations that just made no sense, to some pretty stilted dialog. I mean, it was fine and better than a lot of other super-hero movies, but I don't think it was much to write home about ... but I think I only noticed a lot of those flaws because of other decisions made by the actors/director. (Although that entire hotel scene made me roll my eyes pretty constantly.) And that's before some of the dialogue choices (like the swear words awkwardly tossed in) and exposition choices (like here's someone explaining-it-all while you watch a Sony™ phone video).

Well, if you start just from that angle -- that's very big bed of similarities to start with. Especially when a lot of the criticisms around BvS were to highly specifically how "bleek" and "dark" it was. Very rarely did that ever become a discussion of how/why that didn't work, and instead was just flat out "Batman didn't smile so therefore movie bad." So, I think that when a dark movie does "work," it's worth evaluating that the criticisms of other films and how "lack of humor" or "he moped around" aren't great arguments for why BvS worked or didn't work.

I mean, I appreciate why you personally connected with a movie and how your love for a character made you like a movie more, but I don't think that's a good argument for the movie itself. It's a great personal reason to like a movie, and I totally get it. But I don't think a movie is best picture worthy based on a personal anecdote, and maybe my expectations would have been more in line if I knew people were praising it for that reason or something ... but, when people are saying it's the best action movie since Mad Max, and are saying it deserves a BP nod, like, my expectations are going to be sky-high, and not based around a personal love of a character. It was a pretty good portrayal of Logan, I'd never say differently, but I don't think that alone makes it a good movie.

And where I disagree is that it ends up working. I don't think there's any argument to be made about your personal connection with the film, but my argument would be that I don't think it ends up being effective because the pieces along the way are so flawed. And, I don't think the movie does anything more effective in the slow pacing/violence stage that other movies did and were rightfully criticized for ... especially when it really becomes just a bunch of faceless people that are mass murdered over and over again. (Side bar, I'm surprised no one has pointed out how many people are flat out murdered in the latest GOTG movie as well.)

Again, I find the glorification of kids killing people personally revolting, but that movie had even more wrong with it. But, different movie, better served for a different thread.

 

ah man, makes sense though and worked out in the end. Mangold said that it was a successful screening and more dates at different locations are on the way. so I'm hoping for that since there was nothing in Philly.

 

My problem with BvS was never just that it was "dark," though. That is a common talking point amongst some people, but the good critiques were more nuanced than that. It mishandled some of the characters, especially Superman, and had no heart. It was filled with glorified toxic masculinity and emphasized cool shots over cohesive story.

I was never among those pushing a best picture nom, though. People do get pretty hyperbolic, lol. I am on record saying I'd love to see it get in, depending on what else comes out this year, but that's just 'cause I like seeing superhero films succeed and could see this being a good one to get in; I just don't actually care about award shows, though, lol.

I honestly don't see a way for the violence in Logan to be criticized outside of either personal taste/tolerance or the kind of sweeping criticism of violence that should stop someone from approving of any superhero entertainment ever. I'm open to hearing an explanation, but I don't see it right now.

The villains were shown to be killers of children, and they still had human faces reacting to the pain and showing fear. And, dialogue between Logan and Laura very bluntly stated that the violence takes a toll, even when those killed are unquestionably bad men. Logan also was very reluctant to get involved in any action and used his dying words to encourage the same from Laura. Every individual grunt isn't given a backstory, a name, and an individual burial, but I don't think that's the only way to express that these are people dying.

 

I agree with a few of your points here. The first fight felt like the camera was way too close up, to the point where I actually thought there was something wrong with my TV. And I'll agree that some of the gore shots were probably a little unnecessary (didn't need to see a close up of the blades stabbing through a guy's head), but it would have seemed off if people getting cut up with blades just went down with clean wounds. I think in John Wick, for the most part it's single fire gun violence which is going to be a little cleaner than having to use a blade (hell, when those movies don't use guns it can be pretty gruesome. In John Wick 2 when we see him use the pencil? Loved it, but definitely over the top). Maybe it's just that I've seen worse in other movies, but (with a few exceptions) I don't think the violence felt that grotesque.

I feel like the characters violence and aggression was always out of necessity or pure anger and frustration with the world around them. The opening scene for example, Logan attempts a few times to resolve the conflict without violence even though they literally try to kill him and steal his car. He doesn't appear to ever want to act out, but the world around him makes it inevitable from his point of view.

I've never seen Kick Ass, so I can't speak to how kids act violently in that, but I wouldn't say this movie glorifies kids killing. X-23/Laura seems irreversibly scarred by the laboratory upbringing and acts of violence she's been forced to commit.

 

Well, that was definitely a criticism that a lot of people had, which is what I was pointing out. I'd actually argue against it having no "heart" as well, and I'm not sure I agree with it having significantly more "glorified toxic masculinity" than this film, which I don't think was a bastion of handling female characters at all (and would argue Wonder Woman was better handled in BvS), and definitely played up the worst parts of masculinity through almost the entire film. Second, I don't think the story here was all that "cohesive" or that BvS was by comparison in-cohesive. They were both flawed in their own way; however, again my reason for bringing it up is that these flaws are somehow kinda hand-waved away if people like the director enough, and vice versa.

Tim, your post is the one that made me think it was on that level! Hahah.

Arrival, Mad Max, Best Picture ... haha, your posts are what made me think it was supposed to be on that level. And it's not even close.

Well, to quote from Ebert:

Big Daddy and Mindy never have a chat about, you know, stuff like how when you kill people, they are really dead. This movie regards human beings like video-game targets. Kill one, and you score. They're dead, you win. When kids in the age range of this movie's home video audience are shooting one another every day in America, that kind of stops being funny.

The faceless violence in this movie was no different, people dying with no names, no faces, no discussion of the consequences, or the effect on children's psyche. The movie opens with people dying and continues onward throughout the movie, and the reason for Logan's reluctance is his own selfishness. He's not reluctant to murder in cold blood.

I also don't think that's the only way to express that; however, that doesn't mean they did a good job in doing it. I don't think they did, and by making the violence over the top and hyper-realistic, there should be more of an expectation that they do just that. It's not a movie like Kingsmen where it's over the top from the start with a "wink" (which I have other issues with), it's set up as real ... but without giving the proper weight I think it should (especially in regard to kids being involved). You can handle that well, however, like the swearing -- it does not ever feel like the writers/director did. Instead it was because they could. Because they wanted an R rated movie more than anything. So it feels patched on. A few F words there, some blood splatter here, and you've tacked into the rating you wanted instead of making a great film served by those extras. (And Tarantino this is not.)

And lastly, by the time dozens are dead we don't really know these are "unquestionably bad men" beside that we think we know who are heroes are. The plotting, motivations, and actions of the villains in the movie are poorly handled and don't provide the viewer with context for their actions, or subsequent murder (and in Blondie's case implausible non-murder). I can't even tell you the name of the bad-guys beside making a crack about his hair and bad acting.

 

PS: You all can totally respond/I'll read and maybe respond again, but I don't really wanna argue much more about the movie since I didn't like it and doubt I'll ever watch it again. I do wanna one more time make fun of how many times the camera did the quick focus change thing though, cause my damn eyes wanted to fall out of my head for that.

Oh, and the biggest lesson of the film was: shoulda killed blondie instead of kicking him and being like "well, good enough, you with the giant obvious achilles heel, you go dump him somewhere in the dessert for me." Like, uh, just putting him in the building and locking the door and leaving was a better idea. Or just murder him, cause, well, we're gonna be murdering everyone in this movie anyway.

So, yeah, this is low on my comic book movie list. Hope they can reboot the franchise with some actors I like in the future, ready for Hugh Jackman to go away.

 

Man, I just can't even wrap my mind around your assessment of Logan in comparison to BvS, lol. The one film very clearly presents classic toxic masculinity as a sign of true power (with the villainous Lex weirdly presented in a flamboyant manner that doesn't have comic book precedent), while the other paints a closed off masculine attitude as a fault to overcome. Oh well.

And, I am super critical of the Fox X-Men cinematic universe, including James Mangold's previous Wolverine film (which I tear into more than a lot of people), so there's certainly no bias there. If anything, Wolverine occupies a similar space as Spider-Man, where I'm prone to overanalyze every little detail. Logan winning me over as much as it did is quite a feat.

As for the whole Oscar thing... Sorry that my comment(s) were taken to heart more than intended! lol. I take full blame for that. I think my goal was to present my selfish (yet ambivalent) hopes while toning down others' comments to a more realistic level, and yet I somehow had the opposite effect. My bad.

I don't even know how to engage with that quote about violence because it's so completely contrary to what I saw in the film the 3 times I saw it. Logan and Laura literally have a conversation about murder being a burden, even when the men killed are bad. The final eulogy is Laura quoting an old western to say that Logan couldn't escape the brand of murderer, which happens after Logan tells Laura in his dying breaths not to be the killer they made her to be anymore. Most of Xavier and Laura's interactions are Xavier trying to give this troubled, tortured child (who cuts herself, which is evidence of the psychological impact) some sense of normalcy in the life-or-death madness. And, we clearly see these men treat the children like animals, putting them down and pushing some to suicide, and even taking some occasional pleasure in doing so (when they're not being stoic murderers).

Oh, and while Logan's biggest reason to not get involved is probably selfishness, I'd argue it's a partially justified selfishness due to the toll his life of killing has taken on him. In the opening sequence, Logan tries to talk down the men messing with his car and doesn't snap until he's being stomped into the ground. His decision to have Pierce's body dropped off instead of just stabbing him in the neck seems further proof that he doesn't really have the stomach for killing except as a last resort. He's so broken he's considering ending his own life. He also spends the first third of the film caring more about living his quiet life away from the killing than he does about this young girl's wellbeing.

(I saw your post about maybe not replying, and I respect that. I've totally jumped ship on debates we've had before, lol. No one can argue forever! I just really liked this movie and thus like this excuse to talk about it! I'm honestly sorry that you were so disappointed by it and hope that at least one of the many upcoming comic book films satisfies you! At the end of the day, we're all just nerds who want to enjoy nerdy things.)

 

I'm so glad I loved this as much as I did considering how much I hated the other two Wolverine movies. I've always loved Hugh Jackman as Wolverine so it's nice for him to go out on a high note.

 

Bringing up Laura in the facility reminded me of something in the X-23 origin that might've been an awkward fit here but that I would've liked to see in some capacity: Her surrogate mother reading Pinocchio to her.

Something about a child created in a lab being read a children's book about a toy becoming a real boy is just really touching to me in the silly way that only comic books can pull off, lol.

 

I still have my criticisms of anonymized violence in this/many, many, many other movies, and the movie as a whole doesn't hold up as well to my first viewing after seeing it again, but one thing I actually thought was pretty interesting was an issue I had in my first viewing: I hated how brutally the farm family was murdered. It was gratuitous and disgusting. It was the same violence the film portrayed as rousing and badass for the rest of its runtime, but in a context that plays so vastly differently. But the more I thought about it, the more I liked it. Yes, the violence the film knows the audience was cheering for from Logan and X23 is the exact same violence that killed this family. Literally committed by the same person (even if its a clone). It's a really subtle condemnation and mirror in that I'm not sure how well that concept translated to viewers, and the fallout from it I think could have been handled better (after meeting this family and connecting with people outside her sphere for the first time/witnessing the violence committed against them, X23 doubles down on her brutality and lack of empathy in the rest of the movie: stealing the car from the dude with the dog, the final battle), but it's conceptually something comic book movies rarely ever do and as a deconstruction, a far more interesting and brutal one than anything in any Snyder comic book movie.

Speaking of, in terms of Logan vs. BvS, one of them doesn't have a crucial thematic point revolve around a jar of pee.

 

BvS is garbage and I say that as a huge batman fan.. only thing mildly redeemable about that film is Batfleck.

Logan is good, not great, but it being palatable makes it far better than BvS.

I just wish the DCU was so much better than it is.

 

I even had to use scenes from X3 and Origins because it was part of his history, but I kept it minimal. Watching through these movies to get clips, Jackman did a hell of a job and The Wolverine and Logan both are really good films.

 

Obligatory Honest Trailer post

 

I don't even remember that Taco Bell bit.

 

haha its one of the first lines he has in the movie. When Logan first walks in and he's just rolling around saying nonsense.

 

Watched "Logan Noir." Definitely recommend it to anyone who enjoyed the film. A lot of the shots are rather striking without color, and some of the special effects blend in better. Both the somber moments and the more intense sequences feel heavier, too.

 

Really looking forward to watching that version. Think I'll watch it in color one more time before though. It's been a while since I watched and don't remember everything.

 

Is it on the DVD?

 

It comes with the Blu Ray release as a separate disc. Probably not on the DVD.

 

the 4k release got it on both 4k and blu ray

 

Yeah, not sure how I want to watch it next. Not sure if I want the second time to be the noir version.

 

I love Nerdwriter.

 

Millie Bobby Brown Auditioned for ‘Logan’

 

Damn. I think that last shot made me audibly sob.

This is pretty easily my favorite "superhero" film (without getting into genre semantics) and goes to show how powerful and emotionally affecting you can be when you're not distracted with creating a universe.

 

Another good one from Movies with Mikey. Also, I never knew about the Greenwood Cemetery/Steve Rogers easter egg.