Invasion of Ukraine • Page 87

Modern Russia being a colonial power has me, as the gworls would say, screaming.

 

well getting back to you saying i'm making excuses, i've never done that. i've stated the reason for the invasion. i literally said i didn't agree with it.


and okay. Russia is not imperialist and to be anti-war is to be against the conditions in which war arises.

 

I said they were trying over the last 15-20ish years to get back to that point by taking actions that colonial powers tend to take. Once they got through the initial transition phase economically post-USSR collapse, they began attempting to rebuild and re-assert themselves as a regional and global power/influencer. That's not necessarily wrong or bad! And they've only had mild success at it, to say the least! But again we don't have to ignore those things simply because we don't like what the US does/

 

Right, you're treating it with kid gloves that you would never do for any other western nation and especially the US. The reasons for them doing it are at best not good and at worst very contrived and twisted to fit a certain narrative!

Russia is definitely attempting to be imperialist and this isn't even the first time Putin has done so as the leader of the country. We don't have to pretend we don't see it, man.

 

It's true first of all, and it's just one piece of the puzzle. Nothing simplistic about it. We should consider things like this when we arm foreign nations/fighting forces. That has had disastrous consequences for us in the past.

 

i mean i guess you're right in that in order for any capitalist to expand it must reach new markets and thus once capture of the internal markets of a state is done by the national bourgeoisie is done it must capture the markets of countries outside its borders.

but other than that, i don't see any plans of them extracting wealth from any colonies or neo-colonies, because they don't have any of those. the wealth gained by the russian capitalist is primarily derived from the working class and its resources within the borders of its state.

it is a regional power as it naturally should be given where it is in the world and its economy. not imperialism. not colonialism.

i treat the US and other imperialist states like it, like imperialist states and countries that aren't like Russia or say Iran, not like imperialists because they are not.

are their people who want imperialism in russia? sure, Russia is a capitalist controlled state. but coming back to the topic of this thread. is the war in Ukraine, Russian imperialism? no.

 

Can you name a situation in the last 50 years where an alliance - one that was expressly created to deter and hamper the US - surrounded us with military bases and moved military hardware within striking distance of us on an almost regular basis?

Because that's the difference between western imperialism and what Russia has been faced with.

 

yes, this is currently happening in alternate universe, Earth-619

 

Very hard disagree

 

My point was if the situation were reversed and the US were in that situation, it wouldn't excuse or be a reason to "What about" what the US did (in my example, invade Mexico for buddying up with an alliance we viewed as hostile to us). It would be bad and wrong and I wouldn't be saying "well maybe Mexico should stop talking to China and then the US wouldn't be doing this."...like, we'd all know the reasons why, but apparently only some would still concentrate on the wrong-ness of the US's actions instead of Mexico getting new friends.

 

[

 

Saying that the war in Ukraine is not Russian imperialism is deeply silly. All the whataboutism in the world pointing the finger at US imperialism does not change that fact. The best case to be made there would be to say that Russian imperialism isn't the only thing going on and that the situation is a bit more nuanced than that.

 

the thing that makes this "role-reversal" exercise so ineffective, is that you and I have a very different vision of what this role reversal would look like, cause you and i have a different understanding of the roles as they exist.

 

does not fit the definition.

 

I'm not saying this to be a jerk but I do think it's kind of BS that you've adopted a very niche, communist-centric view of what "imperialism" is vs. the broadly accepted definition of the word throughout history simply for the convenience of being able to wield it against capitalist powers while shielding those from the accusation who are basically just smaller less powerful versions of the US right now lol. But since they used to be communist and they've been victims of US imperialism, then they get the pass.. US might be the mostest imperialist over the last 30 years definitely, maybe 70 years (but we had very large competitors to the title back then!), but we're not the only. And if we're truly against those actions, we shouldn't be afraid to point it out whenever it's done, especially when it's resulting in the deaths of a lot of innocents.

 

I disagree.

 

yes, i use the marxist definition of imperialism because it provides a materialist definition imperialism under capitalism, which we all live under on this planet. it is the workable definition of imperialism. kinda like how there is only one workable definition of zionism. i would not use the term imperialism as applied to say, The Roman Empire, because we do not live under the conditions of feudalism, slaveocracy, etc.

 

you're disagreeing that we disagree?

 

Yes I think this is an incorrect way to view it.

 

I am disagreeing that we have a different "understanding" of the roles as they currently exist. I think we're just disagreeing on what those roles mean in terms of who should be held responsible for their actions.

 

i dunno what to tell you. i'm a materialist.

if one disagrees with me fine. but just for the record things that aren't imperialism off the top of my head so people dont say i'm doing whataboutism in regards to Ukraine:

- Indonesian invasion of East Timor
- Saudi invasion of Yemen
- Mexican-American War (yeah, this too.)
- Iraq invasion of Kuwait
- USSR invasion of Afghanistan
- Sino-Vietnamese War

 

i dont understand. sounds like we just disagree.

 

If your definition of imperialism applies to literally any war of conquest its not a very useful definition (and definitely not one used in any serious academic field)

 

i dunno. the academy can be p(r)etty bourgeois