General Politics Discussion (VI) [ARCHIVED] • Page 1788

Universal federal benefits are extremely hard to take away/lessen once they're put into place, hence why the GOP has failed to scale back SS or Medicare for the last 2 decades despite droning on about needing to "reform entitlements". Once people saw what they were getting, it becomes third rail to touch. GOP got walloped in 2006 partly because of their attempt to privatize SS.

They'll do that to literally any health care bill that seeks to lessen their compensation. frankly, you have to worry about the doctor and hospital lobbyists more than those. They're the ones that are going to fight the hardest because it'll literally require lowering the amount of money they get per procedure. But pretending a public option would be somehow more vulnerable to these attacks is silly. Medicare includes 20% cost sharing and most any politician who would try to increase it to 30% cost sharing right now would get crushed by..well, everyone. if you passed a public option for all with 10% cost sharing and then tried to increase it to 30% cost sharing in 10 years......well, good luck.

 

So I follow this meme account. As you can imagine, the comment section on this one is fun! Whole lot of Lost Cause stuff lol

 

I deleted that because I responded emotionally and feel like you’ve been talking out of your ass on this topic. But since you read it in time to quote it, i guess the conversation is happening.

Every person responding to you in this conversation clearly doesn’t trust that you aren’t shifting goal posts around and trying to justify psychological stress experienced due to debt by means-testing it, maybe you could take a step back and ask yourself if you’re just being intentionally obtuse. I think what you were saying about psychological burdens was offensive. I have no interest in “dunking” on you, I just want you to know that you came across as diminishing what debt does to people’s psyche. I do however have a personal investment in getting out of debt and seeing literally every other person who experiences debt out of it too. I have no indication that you feel the same way. You can try to dismiss that if it makes it easier for you to justify being flippant about what other people are going through, but I’m not taking that criticism “somewhere else” just so you can continue to downplay the shit people go through.

My goal has your friend debt-free and my wife and I debt-free, so i don’t see what you’re trying to argue? I’m not the one that is adopting the position that some level of debt is okay.

 

very successful (Economy Plus)

 

When you’re about to be the third potus ever impeached and you’re definitely not worried

 

An OOP maximum is not a “means test” (though many public option systems around the world do means test to exempt lower income people from having to pay for things oop!).

And there is no “goalpost shifting” going on, nor is there any “justification”. It’s simply pointing out that, yes, there is a huge, huge difference, both tangibly and psychologically, to having 5K in debt vs having 120K in debt. Just based on median income per year in the US alone it’s in a different stratosphere, and that type of maximum would be life changing to a lot of people. You can claim that saying as much is “being flippant” if you want to, but it doesn’t make your insinuation that anyone is saying it’s “easy” or not stressful to be in any type of debt whatsoever any more true.

So yes setting an OOP max at 5K does help a shitton of people, especially those that encounter expensive medical emergencies/chronic severe diseases. Its even more helpful when you don’t have a high deductible to meet, because then it means you’re having insurance cover most of something without even paying anything close to your full OOP maximum anyway.
These are important things to understand! If we’re going to have a public insurance system that includes some cost sharing, like most systems around the world do, then I think people reading should know what that could potentially look like and why it would be helpful. For example,You could have an OOP maximum of $5K, and have a 10% coinsurance rate like Germany does. You’d have to get $50K of medical services that year to actually pay $5K OOP, which would of course be very rare for most people. And would be rarer still since the prices of procedures would theoretically come down in any sort of public insurance system. So yes, it is very possible to have a system where the OOP maximum is $5K and it still be really good system of public insurance.
But, all that being said, even the more conservative public option bills would probably include an individual OOP lower than $5000, because the idea would be to make the public plan robust and attractive enough to force the private plans to lower their costs and offer more benefits. Having individual OOP maximums that match those of private plans would not be a good way to accomplish that goal.

This idea that a public insurance program is just killing people if it doesn’t cover 100% of every single thing is going to backfire dramatically on any progressive President/any progressive health care bill passed.

 

There hasn’t been enough focus on how the FISA abuses pertained exclusively to Carter Page and how most (all?)of the bad shit the investigation turned up did not come from investigating Carter Page lol

 

Of Pepsi? Yeah in 2002. Brand twitter sucks.

 

they're right

 

I don't buy this at all lol. It's already well established that Bernie has the most loyal supporters out of probably any politician except I would guess Trump. And what matters isn't simply the outcome, it's whether you believe the politician is sincerely trying to reach the best possible outcome. It's why so many people on the left rightfully hate so many Dems: they are all talk and no conviction when actually pressed.

Failures and losses are inevitable in politics and it comes off as very condescending to think people have such b/w thinking that anyone (except of course the most vehement Trump supporters) is deluded enough to believe "[My preferred candidate] + presidency = no more problems." Especially with "online leftists" who follow politics closely, since it's already abundantly clear that the people who would be on Bernie's "side" in Congress already attempt to undermine him at every turn.

It isn't that you're simply pessimistic, it's that you're eager to accept the kind of framework that thinks of Bernie's support (and the left wing in general, it seems?) as a nearly cult of personality that will vanish when it's shown that he alone can't deliver the goods. Which is the rhetoric both right wingers and liberals use whenever attacking anyone to their left: acting as if they have their heads in the clouds and are utopian and just don't understand how politics actually works. Hillary has tried to do that exact shit when talking about the '16 primary like "Bernie said everyone can get a pony, but when I tried to oh so innocently ask how we'll pay for the pony, Bernie and his supporters made it seemed like I didn't want people to get a pony!" Which I assume/hope you agree is just evidence of either cynicism or idiocy, but at the same time your pessimism comes off as a combination of wanting that mindset to be wrong but nonetheless being unable to shake it

 

IIRC, there’s some polling out there that shows that the people already saying they’ve decided for Bernie are also the most likely to say they don’t pay a lot of attention to politics/the race in general. In other words, def the type to be more likely to misunderstand the circumstances if/when Bernie has to compromise.

 

I think Bernie has been making it very clear that if he’s unable to achieve Medicare-for-All, he’s planning to have people rally against specific members of Congress who stand in his way. I don’t take that to mean he won’t sign a public option bill under any circumstances - it’s that if that’s all they’re able to achieve, the next election becomes a referendum on why you, as an elected official, personally are allowing the private insurance industry to continue to exist.

Honestly i think Sanders’ case would be made stronger if he talked more explicitly about how the insurance industry is an enemy of the people.

 

I don't want to watch that video...why is the graphic a picture of Neil Gorsuch and a Merry Christmas thing?

 

Lol ofc

 

those people are obviously not the "online left" that you keep referring to. have you considered those people might blame the senate when the senate stops good things, or

 

lol you willing to put money on the president not being blamed for failing to enact one of his signature issues?

 

specifically by the "online left" bernie loyalists who pay attention to politics? yes

 

woo boy 2021 is gonna be interesting

 

So happy to see my city hatin on Trump...was much bigger than the news shows here, there was impeachment support on most downtown corners, lots of honking horns in support...pretty sweet. Especially in one of the reddest states in America

Hundreds gather in downtown Boise ahead of historic impeachment vote

 

Hey ya'll a police officer in my city was found in his unmarked car while still in uniform with the car in gear blowing a 0.45 and nothing happened to him so if you have a spare minute would you sign this :)
Sign the Petition

acab

 

I don’t really think that would happen. Bernie’s supporters have seen his dedication to fighting for everyone for almost 30 years (and that’s just his time as an elected official). Like someone else said, he definitely has the staunchest supporters of all the Democratic candidates.

Would people be disappointed if the end result isn’t 100% free? Yes, but Bernie will be on the frontline if that fight (like he has been), and I think that will endear him to a lot of people. The majority of his supporters (especially the online left, who actually follow politics) wouldn’t go anywhere, I think their anger would be directed towards Congress. Idk it just seems like you have a chip on your shoulder a bit when it comes to leftists, and I think that has rubbed people the wrong way a little.

It really all depends on how the House and Senate shake out after the next cycle. I don’t think anyone expects any candidate to achieve 100% of what they promise, that just isn’t realistic. At least with him we know he will definitely continue the fight once elected and won’t stop talking about it, that alone helps the chances of things getting passed.

As far as the public option thing goes, if you are poor enough to where you can’t afford the OOP payments, it really doesn’t matter how much debt you have, the psychological toll is still going to be the same. People will still avoid getting those life-saving procedures done because they simply can’t afford the bill, and they will die.

Like I am doing okay on money, and I definitely wouldn’t be able to afford a $5000 bill on top of rent, student loans, and my car payment. I would be fucked. I just want a healthcare system that is humane.

Edit: I also can’t afford healthcare/dental/vision right now lol