General Politics Discussion (IX) [ARCHIVED] • Page 907

is it us making the problem worse or democrats making the problem worse by not doing enough to stop the republicans and trump in 2022/2024? I'm tired of being blamed for everything going to shit when I vote, and canvas, and donate for every election and nothing gets better for anyone, just prolongs the suffering when the GOP takes control again and then we get ridiculed for not doing enough for the Democrats again and again and again. It's exhausting and I'm frankly done with it. They're the ones running for office, getting elected, and controlling the 3 branches right now. They can either win over voters during campaigns and follow through with promises and then use their power to actually do something, or they can sit idly by while we all wait for Trump 2024 and call it a day.

 

i mean yeah. Its definitely fucked up because the many of the democrats aren't good at all.

I disagree that "the only way to get them to do anything is threatening to withhold your vote" though. I think we *can* get stuff done through a combination of primarying the shitty dems and electing more dems. Its definitely not the best solution because of the sheer number of shitty dems getting in the way of real meaningful legislation. But we had four years of Trump and the dem leadership learned absolutely nothing. So the idea that withholding a vote is actually a way to get them to change their ways doesn't hold water in my eyes.

 

Man, this isn’t hard. The filibuster is easily removed and Dems currently have the numbers to remove it. That they won’t is EXACTLY THE POINT. They won’t remove it because, like the myth of the apolitical Supreme Court, a considerable number of federal Dems are committed to upholding the current political project.

“Dems can’t remove a rule that is a relatively modern invention and has only been recently used with regularity to prevent a catastrophic rollback to women’s rights. Don’t be ridiculous! Also, vote blue!”

And acting like the federal government has no coercive power over a state like Texas is ridiculous. Of course they do. Send in the troops like they did to enforce desegregation. Withhold federal funding. Or try to make life easier for women in those states. Pass a law providing federal funds for transportation to abortion providing states. Who the fuck knows but do SOMETHING.

Conflict avoidance is just capitulation. Either this is a monumental crisis or it isn’t. And my entire point is that a vast majority of federal legislators don’t believe this it’s a monumental crisis. And their behavior supports my thesis.

 

I'm talking about the people who are saying the party that has actively made it harder for women to get abortions are the same as the party that hasn't

 

literally what we heard over and over and over and over and over against on the night of the 2020 election when it came to Ossoff and Warnock in GA and looks what its gotten us. Elect more dems/vote harder etc, and what do we get for it?

 

They don't actually have the numbers to remove it. Because not all dems support removing the filibuster. Which means you can't get rid of it with just 50 dems. You probably need more like 53 or 54.

Elect more dems, and you can get those numbers. Which would be good.

Elect more republicans, and instead you get enough republicans who are happy removing the filibuster to accomplish whatever they want. Which won't be good.

 

People saying "both parties are the same" are saying the results are the same not the intentions.

Dems no longer get credit for good intentions if they're so inept at getting the results, and in the case of results they are the same in that we all get shit on and laughed at when we ask for marginal improvement.

 

There was certainly a time where you could say that both parties were really one and the same with slight rhetorical differences (and not even that so much during the Clinton years). But really since Obama, the birther movement, and the post-Tea Party era it's becoming increasingly hard to justify that. Both certainly still have the interest of benefitting capital over people as their fundamental aim to be sure (with a few exceptions here and there). But while the Democrats suck because they are absolutely pathetic, existing on a spectrum from "we don't really care" to "we are completely incompetent" the contemporary Republican Party quite literally exists in a different, fabricated reality. And that reality is becoming increasingly aggressive to everyone it deems its "enemy", to the point where a coup seems on the verge of being likely and civil war seems a distinct possibility in the near future. And this isn't even taking into account that the party ideology is already killing people due to its approach to COVID/vaccines

The Democrats doing absolutely nothing is clearly hurting things and accelerating this crisis, but that's different in my opinion than actively driving it. Both parties absolutely deserve quite harsh criticism and I ultimately believe that Democratic Party as currently structured is helpless. But the rhetoric of equating the two parties at this point feels like it has lost a lot of its power. They both suck, they're both responsible for what's happening, but for very different reasons

 

Everyone knew that a 50/50 split wouldn't be enough to get a lot of what we wanted done because people like Manchin would stay in the way.

But Biden has been able to get a number of appointees through the courts. Which is basically all the presidency can do these days anyways.

If we want to do more than that, we need better than a 50/50 majority so that we're not victim to the whims of the right-most democrat.

 

but the courts make it clear the results are not the same.

 

yeah the problem is that the gop for instance wants to make it illegal to be trans and all the dems can do is say leave them alone your pronouns are valid , so the dems are very different just completely ill equipped to deal with fascism

 

this is 100% what it boils down to, no need to argue for 10 more pages

 

Sinema and Manchin ARE DEMOCRATS. Electing more democrats is no guarantee that you will elect people who support removing the fillibuster to accomplish fundamental change, which again, is precisely my point!

The Democrat label =/= willing support fundamental change!

Which is why American political party labels are meaningless at the federal level! Because Manchin and AOC are in the same fucking political party.

 

This tweet still sums things up better than anything I've ever seen

 

My uncle and my cousin (different households) both tested positive yesterday, so my family has canceled our Christmas get together.

Another quiet Christmas at home by myself, sigh

 

So dems have gotten good results in shaping the courts in your lifetime and that's going to continue without them being able to win an election for the foreseeable future?

 

hell yeah

 

I mean. Nominate and elect democrats that express support for removing the fillibuster.

Sure, you might get unlucky and have someone that turns their back on the shit they ran on like Sinema.

But its still better than electing a republican.

 

what?

the "dems are and republicans are the same" people are the ones that are implying having the dems in power would make no difference to the courts vs having the republicans in power.

if the dems are unable to win elections, they can't shape the courts. but the republicans can, and we've seen the devistating effect that can have.

 

my dad tested positive sunday, which means my mom probably will too. christmas is currently up in the air

 

It is awesome to see all these strikes working/places starting unions

 

anyone who thinks we can solve this country’s problems through electoral politics at this point is fucking delusional. just scroll past cluckys posts and move on.

 

So wait. It’s “ridiculous” of me to say that Dems could pass a law that codifies Roe because it ignores the current politic realities regarding the filibuster.

But it’s NOT ridiculous for you to suggest that the solution is to somehow defend each and every democratic senate seat while also electing 3 to 4 more democratic senators who have all expressed a willingness to remove the filibuster. All while the democrats run on achieving none of their stated campaign goals.

Got it.

 

53 - 2 is bigger than 50

50 - 2 is not bigger than 50

not sure why you can’t understand this