General Politics Discussion (IX) [ARCHIVED] • Page 1234

I'm not arguing against the use of sanctions in this situation. I am saying that I don't think they are being utilized properly or effectively right now if the goal is to stop Putin's aggressions / Russia's attack on Ukraine. Also that it is silly to pretend that sanctions are not just another type of weapon, because I believe that they are.

 

Oh I get that; I just assumed that if you complained about the sanctions, you'd have your own opinion on what should be done instead. Being that we have no other options at this point (that I can think of), if the goal of the West is to stop Putin's aggression, at the moment, these sanctions are the only weapon the West has. When you're facing a completely irrational and insane actor like Putin, there's really no way to predict what he'll respond to. So it's all about ratcheting up the response until he finally relents

 

How do we—

Who is this “we” y’all keep talking bout?

We are not the state department and it seems like no matter who you vote for the US is always doing a coup or doing sanctions or invading or bombing or some shit.

So quit the what should “we” do shit. Cause you’re really fooling yourself like you’re watching your favorite sports team and thinking, wow we really gotta get better on defense or need a need to fire the coach or gotta draft better this off season.

 

I'm not anti-sanction, but I do agree that if the backbone of any country is the economy, and the backbome of any economy is its workers, the only way to hurt said economy is to hurt its workers.

Sanctions are weapons, and I don't think we should whitewash them as anything else. But as far as weapons go, they do give their victims the best fighting chance to, y'know, not get blown up.

 

OK, the West; how should the West respond to Putin? I really want to know what you think should be done; this is what I'm most curious about. Or should Zelensky in fact give up the east, flee Ukraine, and cede the country to Russia? I want a solution to this conflict, so I'm trying to think of anything else the West can do to solve it

 

“We” learned nothing

 

suckkng their own dicks and promising that Ukraine remains neutral and also disbanding NATO for good measure.

 

Thank you, that's what I was looking for

 

For my own sanity I’m done for the night telling people why supporting harming other people, likely poorer than them, in other countries is bad.

 

Also... functionally, talking about politics is the same as talking about sports.

Like, unless you're participating in on-the-ground community aid or other low-level praxis, the entire point of Average Joes talking about politics is to write speculative fiction about what should and should not happen, not necessarily because we believe anyone in power will listen to us, but because engaging with The Discourse is how you learn what your values are.

It's all self-masturbatory fantasy, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

 

I don't think anyone is claiming that harming Russian citizens isn't bad. The problem is a lack of options that could realistically accomplish anything.

What's worse? People being murdered, or people going poor?

 

I doubt the sanctions are accomplishing anything, as far as we can tell. Literally only hurting the working and middle class.

Not that I have a better idea...

 

I do think seizing Oligarch's foreign assets was nice and basically forcing them back to Russia, since it's wild that they let a country go to shit and then live of its riches abroad.

but I am ready to get yelled at about that too haha

 

It is interesting, because as of 2 days ago I straightforwardly supported sanctions, and assumed anyone who didn't was doing some "But Venezuela!" hyperbolism, but now I've done some thinking and I don't really support them anymore.

Idk, sanctions are framed in a very specifc way by the US where we don't say "We're doing this because we want to hurt Russia" we say "Putin has made sanctions a moral necessity" which feels a lot better. It's like when there's a bank robber and the cops say "don't move or we'll shoot"-- they shift the responsibility off of them not to shoot, and onto the bank robber to not move. In a manner of speaking, the robber killed himself, because he moved.

Obviously that's bullshit framing, but it's effective. It feels good to say "We're not starving them, Putin's starving them by making us impose these sanctions. If he didn't move we wouldn't have to shoot". But that's not really how it works.

I think I was attracted to sanctions because the idea of Russia in decay just makes Americans feel good. I think in the US we see Russia as a backwards authoritarian wasteland, so it's impossible for us to comprehend us causing Russians pain, because we already imagine existing in Russia at all would be pain. That any pain we cause Russians would be a drop in the bucket to what Russia causes Russians. But that's a very culturally insensitive mental framework.

It's possible the short-term harm of sanctions is overstated, but if America is still fucking up the Russian supply chain a month from now, people will die.

 

And the biggest reply to that shithead is Lauren Boebert.

 

Again, if this is true, that’s wild. Between the anecdotal data and evidence on Twitter and this, it’s pretty interesting

 

What's worse, people being murdered or people being murdered slower?

 

Great summary of things

 

Something weird and insanely fucked up is happening at Fort Bragg.

Active duty Fort Bragg soldier charged in deadly SC shooting :: WRAL.com

The Fort Bragg Murders

Fort Bragg soldier charged with killing pregnant girlfriend, shooting her as she drove car

 

If you slow down the rate of murder happening in one country (which is the one that is def gonna have the higher rate of civilian death in this conflict) by enacting sanctions that hurt the other country’s ability to fight and prolong the war, you could end up saving more people on the one side than would have survived. That’s kind of the goal of sanctions—to pressure one side into ending the conflict and, thus, the murders.

 

we’re gonna find out about some weird ass experimentation going on aren’t we.

Or some confection to PFAS’ or something

 

Yeah ok but what about the disconnect between this stated goal and what actually occurs? If the sanctions don’t work in the face of evidence that they likely won’t work can you really justify them? I think it’s more likely the sanctions are designed to weaken Russia’s economy and their place in the global power scale/market given that our leaders have to know they ultimately won’t end this conflict and given the fact that we know our leaders salivate over weakening Russia, not for moral purposes but for imperial purposes.