General Politics Discussion (III) [ARCHIVED] • Page 325

I've studied white people for over three decades now. The mothafuckas don't hear shit.

 

Is she also a socialist? If so, I think she's won Republican Hatred Bingo.

 

Like I said last time, I won't brush them away if given the opportunity. I'd try and sell them on all the reasons why I think they'd be better off with left wing way of thought, even if I know they voted for Trump. But I'd still also point out their best hope for getting anywhere close to any of what they want is to make sure Democrats are in office right now at the national level, and any left wing candidate at the local level (which will usually be Dems, but you can get indy's and other left wingers in some races if you generate turnout). They're far more likely to be pushed towards those policies than the Republican party is. Republicans and their winning of elections are the reason why we are where we are right now on the policy spectrum. Politicians are being rewarded for being more right wing, so the politicians start moving to the right. That's what's been so frustrating about the "well if they lose maybe they'll realize they have to do this!" and it's like ugggh. They're just going to see their colleges rewarded for being right wing nut jobs, not any reason to move left.

As I said before I'm hoping we're entering a transitional period where politicians start getting rewarded for more left wing stances, but the process of getting there is going to be painful and full of, shall we say, disappointing members of the party...because a lot of them came to power in the 80's and 90's when the Dems got their asses kicked by an electorate that perceived them as too far to the left, and rewarded them when they came back towards the center. Need some more Berniecrats to start winning more elections so people start seeing that left wing thought and action can win elections. The Dems almost by definition are more pragamatic though and have a bigger ideological tent, so you are almost always going to have to deal with the Joe Manchins of the world, but by now it should be apparent that we can't expect statesman to do the best for the country even if it costs them their jobs. We just have to view them as, at best, no votes that will help block most of the shitty Republican policies. Not allies in the fight for things. JMHO there.

I can see why you took/take my anger at Trump voters as not being willing to "welcome" them to the left wing train of thought, but that was never my intention. I just can't hide my contempt for their decision and pretend that they are some innocent victim in this, they made a pretty disgusting choice and I will remind them of that. Every time Trump does something awful or gross I'd like to remind every Trump voter of what they voted for, honestly.

 

you can't treat/think of the specific Trump voters that lightning and I talk about as the common Trump voter. I know you think you're drawing a distinction between them but all your posts seem to lack that dichotomy. I understand where you're coming from when it comes to talking to other types of their supporters but it never seems like you truly grasp what lightning keeps talking about (which is why she keeps talking about it).

 

I wonder if Conservatives who act like college campuses are filled with radical leftists have ever actually you know been on a college campus

 

I wasn't saying you specifically, I was saying those that did.

I mean, I'd ask someone that was defending Trump why they were defending him and I think there'd be a lot of places where I'd disagree with any answer that does, in fact, defend him.

From what you've shared, I think the biggest sticking point will be with any form of interventionism. I see a lot of people that have a very hardline view in regard to that.

The thing is, and I keep saying this, neither am I. I've voted for other parties many times in my life (and I vote in every election, and have since I was able to). But, in specific cases I will vote for someone I don't like if I think it's the right decision anyway, and voting against Trump no matter what I believe was one of those. But, no reason to go over that all again, it's been done in detail.

I mean, I voted for Bernie. So I agree with you.

What do you recommend?

 

I understand that, but it's intellectually dishonest if I pretend I believe something different based on who I'm talking to. I'm not going to pretend I'm more for American intervention in the middle east to protect christian's just because I'm talking to a middle eastern christian...I'm going to lay out all of the reasons why I think that would be a terrible idea that would, if history is any indication, not lead to good consequences for the people we'd be claiming we're trying to protect. America doesn't have a good track record with that, and there will never be enough far left wingers in office that make sure it's done the "right way" "this time". It wouldn't sound as sexy as "We're going to go in, kill the Muslims, and protect the Christians", but that is nothing more than a surface level promise that can't possibly be kept, and I'd like to get people looking below that surface.

This is in addition to me agreeing with Jason that making a voting decision based off of a singular issue and without looking past the surface of said issue is, at best, a regrettable way to vote. I understand that's not the easiest thing for persecuted people, or poor people, or marginalized people, or etc, but it's something that has to be combated. Everyone of course has their one or maybe two issues they care about the most and reasons why, of course, but picking one issue and going with what looks good on the surface is what leads to people like Trump winning. I think the "Typical" Trump voter fell for this tactic on jobs and health care, the one issue manufacturing jobs people and the one issue too 'rich' for subsidies but too poor to afford insurance' crowd fell for Trump's rhetoric, and for reasons that are very real to them and that I can't personally ever relate to...but they still made the wrong decision.

 

Where did I say differently?

 

i mean. calling it a stupid reason is probably not effective.

 

Yep, the biggest mover will be just that. And I think it's coming. But if people self-select out of elections, and/or those candidates lose, then the only voters that will be courted end up being some variation of the right and center right.

 

What does this have to do with your first post or what I responded to or with what you were responding to?

You really have to do a better job of tying your thoughts together, because every time I read your posts I seriously don't know what they're even in reference to. They all feel like non-sequitors unrelated to what you're responding to. Are you referring to me saying someone's rationalization for being racist I can "understand" and think is "stupid" (your phrase, I don't see that in my post) at the same time? (And how is that related to "realiz[ing] minorities are going to stop trying to explain why they are alienated by Democrats' continued refusal to hear them where they're at on political motivations"?)

 

like he said:

Today at 12:05 PM

Fucking Lieberman.

 

Agreed. Wealthcare is the best messaging I've heard on AHCA so far. I can still remember one of my drunk cousins who is all in on Trump (because he "tells it like it is and doesn't give a fuck") pivoting mid-argument to say that Wall Street people are fucking the country and should have to pay their fair share. By the end of the conversation, he was talking about how Bernie was great and had the right ideas but he'd never vote for Hillary no matter what she said or did. Smdh.

TLDR: Messaging is so so so important in 2018. Make it about 1% vs Everybody, not Dems vs Trump and you can get more people on your wavelength. It's unfortunately almost exactly like sports fans... some people are never going to think of the other team as anything but scumbags. And a lot of it's the media's fault.

 

Lol

 

you used the word ignorant, which i mean yes is not stupid (memory failed me) but i would call that pretty semantical...

all of my posts were in regards to your steadfast refusal to hear where MENA minorities are coming from both within and outside this thread. not sure why you regularly have trouble interpreting my posts, it seems like other people process them well enough.

 

Well, first: I wouldn't. And yes I think racism is ignorant (among many other things)

What are you talking about? I literally said the opposite in my post. My entire post is about hearing, and understanding where someone is coming from, and still not agreeing with a conclusion. If you're going to make statements in bad faith, why should I continue this conversation?

 

The new FCC chairman is the most underreported on dick so far. The shit he is pulling has flown under the radar in its awfulness.

 

well, like i said to david...

"i mean, perhaps, but only as much as men can hear, understand, and disagree/condemn women's experiences, or as white people can hear, understand, and disagree/condemn pocs' experiences, as they relate to political goals. which is to say, at least as they function along an axis of that identity, not a lot. MENA minorities have expressed a deep distrust in the democratic ideology as it stands now because of relative ignorance of their conditions. white liberals fundamentally do not have experiences that can inform our judgment of this relationship. something's got to give."