General Politics Discussion [ARCHIVED] • Page 157

genuinely curious so i don't mean this as snarky, but theft from who/what?

 

As someone who just finished a course in, and began working an internship involved with, property law, I'd be interested in you fleshing out this fairly sweeping statement.

 

Private property is the monopolization of resources, like land, for the few.

 

An Anarchist FAQ (03/17) | The Anarchist Library

What I Believe | The Anarchist Library

What is Property? by Proudhon

Proudhon's basic ideas

 

Well, the argument would be that the juridical norms conform to the needs of private property.

 

Its an old anarchist saying, fleshed out quite well in "What Is Property?" It is referring to the manner in which the state propping up private control of land, resources, and the means of production, even when the propietor does not work the land or resources, is theft from those whos labor makes those things valuable. If I own 1000 acres and pay workers to tend to them, making huge profits off of the results of their labor, while sitting in my plantation mansion tending to my wealth, I am stealing the benefits of the land from those workers. It is not a labor theory of value, but a use-occupancy theory of ownership

 

Is this an argument, though? Saying that juridical norms conform to the maintenance of a private property-driven system of stratification doesn't really qualify the statement that "property is theft." He may have meant simply that private real property is theft, which is far more easily supplemented philosophically.

But the idea that all private property embodies theft would seem to me to be a sweeping overstatement. If anything, if meaning to quantify labor, private property is (now) inherently the product of predatory systems of negotiation-- however, the elements of bargain are still existent, disqualifying it from being theft.

 

So you're meaning just property as in control of land and water (or certain accesses thereof), yes?

In that case, I have no qualms with the statement.

 

Property as in private, total control over land, resources, or the means of production that create goods from them, yeah. It is, in my understanding, pretty widespread and standard socialist property theory. Socialist theories of worker ownership of the means of production are tied to it - capitalists owning them as private property is theft, so it is justified to take them back. I don't mean you have to share your toothbrush with the collective, no.

 

Socialism makes a distinction between private and personal property I believe

 

There is a distinction being made between personal property, like an iPod, and private property. The latter refers to monopolization that excludes any public participation, eg, land accumulation. Essentially, anything that can be used to subjugate others.

 

Ah, I wasn't appreciative of the implied distinction in Wharf's post.

 

lmao i wasn't sure if i should be like "uh jake the daily mail is not good" but i see you were being facetious hahah.

i think it's a little shitty but i imagine it's largely being blown out of proportion by the fucking Mail, and anyway there's nothing condemnable unless you're against private property, which Mark Zuckerberg assuredly isn't.

 

It is all good. Sometimes it is taken for granted that people know what we're attempting to convey, especially given your username. Ha.

 

yeah the confusion between private and personal property is an enormous misconception of socialism that i wish i could universally and instantly overturn

 

Ok.

 

I guess it's just my naivete on the issue but to take campaign money to further your own businesses...there has to be laws against this, right? From a capitalist perspective, it's down right genius...but inhumane.

 

Doesn't the ownership of land and control over resources create personal property like an iPod? If private property is theft then isn't an iPod a product of that theft?

 

See above reference to means of production.

 

I've been waiting for someone to do this.

 

Everyone is mad about a wall surrounding a property? Really? I'm more baffled at the need for 1,000 acres for privacy, on a semi remote island.

 

So there was a terrorist attack in Istanbul, not seeing a lot of "pray for Turkey" on my social media feed.

 

Me neither

 

I think my friend from high school who posted the lyrics to John Lennon's "Imagine" on Facebook after the Orlando shooting is flabbergasted that it didn't bring about world peace and decided to sit this one out.

 

There are rules and laws on how campaign money can be used, but most politicians don't own resorts, hotels, golf courses, and casinos. So they tend to hold events at locations that help lobbyists or "friends" out. While most politicians will use their campaign money to buy influence and buy favors, Trump has used 20% to boost his businesses with campaign related events and services.