Brand New Band • Page 791

I think what straylight is trying to say is

"comparing what Jesse did to what other people did minimizes what Jesse did because it's possible to make the excuse: well they did it, and [it was okay], and so what I did is okay"

I think where straylight is missing the point is that just because that excuse is possible for a perpetrator or their supporters to make doesn't mean it isn't nonsensical, so it follows that making that comparison doesn't actually, in reality minimize anything

attempted translation over

 

no one is saying its okay that anyone did anything

 

I'm aware

 

You almost got what I meant right, but I feel like you missed the point why people like me and Jason are saying that painting broad strokes with other band members abusing victims - minor or otherwise - is the wrong way to go about this.

The gist of my point is that we live in a civilized society with a set of rules and parameters that we call laws. By these laws, what Lacey is getting accused of is indisputably a crime. It was against the law and abhorrent. By these own laws, unfortunately, because it happened more than five years that these denouncers completed 18 years old, unless he had the same criminal conduct with minors that were under 18 years five years ago, he won't be answering criminally for this.

There's a time and a place to a broader discussion of victims of abuse throughout history. There's a time and a place for a healthy discussion about updating consenting laws so stuff like doesn't go unpunished by law. My own personal set of views are similar to cwhit and others that think that what happened back then is abhorrent, I have my own harsh views about the subject like chwit and others here have. But we can either tap ourselves on the back by our own strict moral codes and how we aren't okay with diverse cases of sexual or emotional abuse, or we can focus on the subject at hand:

Lacey abused underage kids. Not groupies, mind you. Not girls over the age of consent in most countries and states. Not girls that would be able to legally consent in any state in the US or UK, for example. Underage kids, that by their own accounts, didn't pursue the band or Lacey. It was the other way around. No, underage groupies from back then or now "weren't asking for it". It's also wrong and abhorrent. But it's two factually different stances, nuances that I feel that are getting kinda lost by people thinking it's okay to paint things with broad strokes. When it's not.

Legally, what Lacey did is a crime. I honestly hope if there're other victims to come forward - and I don't doubt there are - I hope that they come forward and Lacey answer for this, not just by us, the scene, his fans or former fans, but also legally. That he answers legally for his crimes. I'm sorry if my legal background or a language barrier make this issue look more intricate than it is to some, but the truth is that this is a complex issue with intricacies that need to be addressed. Lumping everything together favors the perpetrators, not the victims. And I'm not giving them that easy way out.

 

What I'm saying is that addressing specific instances is more productive than arguing about hypotheticals. There's various variables at play in every interaction and those are more productive than generalities. Band Member X and Fan Y is specific and can be helpful in these discussions, Hypothetical Man age 32 and Hypothetical Person age 17 is less helpful.

 

troywiththepizza.gif

 

didn't this whole weird conversation start BECAUSE we gave specific examples (david bowie, other old rockers) and was told that we shouldn't use that here?

 

Dunno, didn't read that argument going on. Only commented on the generic "band vs groupies" portion.

 

Alright. I will make this short: this matters to me because this band once mattered to me and because like the underage victims, I also was a victim of child abuse. I was a freaking 5 year old kid when it happened. Growing up dealing with something like that is something I understand, personally. Putting myself in the position of the victims is easy because it happened with me too.

When I was 17 years old, I lost my virginity. I had this friend that eventually become my colleague in college. She had an older sister, she was 23-24 years old back then, I don't remember exactly. Point is she was ending college, dating some guy and I was 17. She was cool and we hang out watching Friends and MTV videos together. I wanted and pursued that. I don't feel like I was abused when I consciously choose to have sex with this girl that was older than me. It could get abusive afterwards because I feel like she pressured to keep it going but I feel like I was mature enough to stop because well, she was in a relationship, I was about to go to college and had my whole fucking life ahead of me.

If I was a girl and that girl that took my virginity was a band member, that situation could and probably would play it differently. Legally, that girl taking my virginity, wasn't wrong. Would it be wrong if I was younger? I don't know. Legally around here, it would if I was under 14. It would be statutory rape. I'm pretty damn sure that back when I was 15 and kissed a girl for the first time (once again she was older than me, she was 18 years old but I was completely in love with her, hormones and shit) and she lead me on for sex, it'd be sort of fucked up. Why? Because I probably wasn't ready yet.

Thankfully, other than the fucked up shit that happened when I was just a freaking kid didn't reflect in my sexual life going forward. I do feel a lot of anger and when it involves family members, it's yet another complete shitstorm. What I'm opposing against is the lumping everything together like Jason is saying above. You can't do that. As an ex-fan of Brand New, as someone that works in the legal area and someone that survived child abuse, I feel like my opinion is valid. Don't tell me that 5 or 14 year old me could decide the same things that 17 years old me could, because it's not true. And not the same thing.

 

look man im not trying to tell you how you should feel or react to anything. i posted that because this convo is going in circles and i also thought the bit where you mansplained how laws work and continually referring to these women as groupies is extremely off-putting.

 

Another great point that you said yesterday that I feel is getting lost in context is about infantilization of women and victims.

Saying that an overage victim can't know better than an underage kid around 14-16 years old is flat out wrong to me. When you do that, when you blurry the line of what "wrong doing" between people capable of consent and those who are not, you are causing harm even if you aren't aware that that's what you are doing.

I feel bad for women that identified themselves as band groupies in the past and regret that decision. But like you've said, you need to be able to discuss each case individually, not lumping them all together. That doesn't help the victims, all that does is "well, Lacey did it, so did Bowie and Elvis, why are you still listening Heroes and Can't Help Falling In Love and not Brand New again?". Doing that serves Lacey and Brand New, not the victims.

I agree that we are going in circles.

But I feel like lumping together people capable of consent with those who are not AND the fact that you are telling me that I "mansplained how laws work" and wrongly saying that I "continually referring to those women as groupies" is what actually is extremely off-putting.

First, I didn't mansplained anything and I feel like you don't understand the very concept of that word, what I did was give my foreign legal perspective, which I do think it should be seen in a positive light.

Second, I call groupies women or men that identified themselves as such. You might not be aware of that, but people back then and even now identify themselves as such, I'm not the one judging them for it, you are. My point is that Lacey's victims weren't groupies. Period. The women that came forward were photographers that worked the venues, but not groupies. The victims that came forward didn't tell stories about how they actively pursued Lacey and Brand New, following them around because they really wanted to be romantically involved with them. What all these victims have in common is that at least three of them were 16 or as young as 14, and neither actively pursued Lacey. The one with 17 years old that was also lead on and emotionally abused for years wasn't even at a concert when they met. It was the other way around, Lacey actively pursued them, which makes it more sickening.

 

This is the dumbest thread I've ever read in my entire fucking life.

 

Alright. Fuck off and grow the fuck up. It's impossible to have a healthy discussion with types like you.

 

i want the 14 seconds it took to gloss over your posts back, @straylightrunner .

 

why though when i could stay and you can mansplain mansplaining to me some more. that was fun.

 

Are you womansplaining about how a mansplainer mansplained about mansplaining

 

idek it's getting hard to keep track

 

This seems like a really roundabout way to defend the Beatles. That's how this started right? Because John Lennon is a piece of shit, not that it needs to be said or anything.

 

I find it best to just not engage with straylightrunner.

 

Já foram. Está tarde de mais agora. Tem que mudar em frente meu amigo.

 

I'm getting called out of "mansplaining" by some dude with the name "dadbolt" with a profile that says male, 31, from Texas, a twitter handle that says "cooldadguy" and another dude with latin username that was mad that we were suggesting female and non-binary bands not so long ago. Oh, getting called out by other user about the same subject called "Greg", after I did my best to explain why I see a difference between all of this. Give me a fucking break.

No, @Ben Lee. This is not about the Beatles or any other band from the past. This is about Lacey preying upon underage kids and that shit is not just morally reprehensible, it's a crime. If you can't understand that and will gang attack me, fine. Be my guest.

 

Like, I thought with the Science Fiction thread locked some of this type of shit posting would be put to bed. But it won’t end. May have to unsubscribe from here. It’s not like I would want to see any updates from this band anymore if anything comes up.