Brand New - Science Fiction (August 17, 2017) [ARCHIVED] Album • Page 1688

Assuming that every musician (or anyone) who's accused of these things is a victim of a lying female by crying 'Conor Oberst!' is awful, and ignorant, and harmful.

Believing that every musician (or anyone) who's accused of these things and is innocent shouldn't use every avenue at their disposal to clear their name by crying 'Conor Oberst!' is awful, and ignorant, and harmful.

It might be a good idea to just retire the use of crying 'Conor Oberst' in any of those conversations, really, given that his case represented the less than 1% of malicious, false accusations that occur in these situations.

 

We need vices. Bought a bride. "Hide your daughters", the old men say. You were young once before, you know how we get our way.

I can understand coping through music. I can understand coping through writing down your flaws. I can't understand how recurrent it is and how that's an undergoing theme from their first to their last record. If he wanted to keep writing about this shit, he should have started apologizing to his vicitims first, instead of literally profitting from his "messiah impression". And once the pattern doesn't go away and the rest of the band simply sticks around, yeah, fuck all of them.

And trust me, I'm willing to get convinced by them that I am wrong. That they didn't know. That they stand by the victims. That they are telling the truthers to shut the fuck up. They aren't doing a good job of convincing me otherwise, are they?

 

Yeah, I dunno. Maybe? IIRC the compelling evidence was these two people were never actually alone together/in different places when the event was supposed to have taken place. That's pretty compelling, and probably would have swayed me if it was backed up. I don't think in that situation the accuser would recant, she would just go silent.

I think in that scenario it probably ends his career as well.

Oh, I agree that the blanket idea of defamation lawsuits (or the threat of) against accusers is harmful and bad. And it can be, and often is, weaponized to the point where the richest person is who "wins." But, I don't know if I think that's an absolute. I also support justice reform.

I guess what I'm curious about is if we accept that false accusations are extremely rare, and we act with the default of trust but verify when accusations are made, and that's where we start. (And also, just let's point out this has nothing to do with Brand New at all, multiple accusations were made against Jesse and he responded by saying he does not deny any of them.) What should be done going forward if someone does make a false accusation, say anonymously, online about someone? We saw yesterday that this tactic is already being picked up by bots and made against politicians, and I'm willing to bet that's going to increase in frequency in the next few years. What space do we have for someone that was falsely accused of something? Does that just hang over them forever? I read a lot of denials, and some sound better than others, but I always have in the back of my mind a default position of doubt.

That thread going around on Twitter yesterday about justice and why these accusations now need to be made in public because the justice system has failed everyone so badly I think really sums up my thoughts. But I also have an idea of where this is all going and I don't think we as a society are prepared for it. There will be more false accusations made and we don't have anything close to a way to handle that right now IMO.

And one last time: This has no baring on what's going on with Brand New. Because this is not a denial:

The actions of my past have caused pain and harm to a number of people, and I want to say that I am absolutely sorry. I do not stand in defense of myself nor do I forgive myself. I was selfish, narcissistic, and insensitive in my past, and there are a number of people who have had to shoulder the burden of my failures. I apologize for the hurt I have caused, and hope to be able to take the correct actions to earn forgiveness and trust.

No matter how much reddit idiots want to pretend it is.

 

I can't say. I don't know what is happening with the band. I don't know if he issued an apology to anyone (obviously except for the accusers and I don't know if the lyrics have to be interpreted in that one way. But I understand what you are saying and see your POV

 

It's possible, but I'm convinced it was for monetary reasons after what happened with Derrick. And I'm not convinced, based on accounts from people that have messaged me, there was change.

 

man what a shitty heartbreaking saga heavy on retroactivity this turned out to be

Good riddance BN and endless hope for recovery, closure and eventual empowerment for all those negatively affected

 

Speaking of why I think the justice system has failed victims and is bullshit.

 

Interesting....

Lol....that's a whole other discussion! We live in a society of tribalism and social justice

 

I'd argue our society is greatly lacking social justice.

 

By that I mean nothing goes to court and everything is in the court of public opinion (social media)

 

?

a victim is being taken to court by her abuser and this is your take?

 

All fair points. My point is just that if we're going to recognize how defamation suits are used in silencing accusers, we can't ignore that Conor's had many of those same traits. That particularly suit did make waives in legal circles. Check out this law review article that examines it from an anti-slapp suit perspective:
From the article:

"a. Increased chilling effect. First, Oberst’s suit, right or wrong, bears many of the hallmarks of a SLAPP, especially the significant chilling effect on future speech. For instance, Oberst filed in the Southern District of New York, far from Faircloth’s home in North Carolina. Filing in a far-away jurisdiction can stretch a target’s resources, forcing them to capitulate rather than attempt to litigate at a distance.124 Further, Oberst, as a successful musician and producer, has significantly more resources to throw at a large-scale civil lawsuit than Faircloth, who was apparently under significant financial strain.125 While Pring and Canan found that, at that time, many SLAPP filers were economically equal with their targets,126 many filers in modern SLAPPs have “extensive resources” that are used to “bury opponents in expensive litigation.”127 Finally, Oberst withdrew the lawsuit only after Faircloth recanted. As noted above, the filer of a SLAPP is not truly seeking damages from a target. The filer only wants the target’s silence.128

Thus, while many facts indicate otherwise,129 it is still within the realm of possibility that Faircloth was, in fact, telling the truth. Only she and Oberst know what did or did not happen at that concert over a decade ago. If Faircloth was telling the truth, the threat of Oberst’s lawsuit was a SLAPP that effectively silenced her legitimate speech on a serious issue of public concern in a public forum.130 Moreover, even if Faircloth was lying, Oberst’s very public threat of a million-dollar lawsuit may have chilled other legitimate, truthful speech regarding sexual violence against women. Certain outlets that reported on Oberst’s lawsuit identified this very dynamic131 and some called for Oberst to drop the suit, even if Faircloth’s accusations were untrue.132 Internet news outlets carried this story nationally and internationally, potentially reinforcing a damaging “rape culture” narrative.133 Actual victims of sexual assault might see Faircloth, threatened with legal action in a faraway state by her alleged attacker, and decide that speaking up is dangerous. This is precisely the chilling effect that Pring and Canan asserted results from SLAPP suits,134 but on a much grander scale."

https://digitalcommons.law.byu.edu/.../&httpsredir=1&article=3044&context=lawreview

 

Yeah, we definitely need to update and revamp anti-SLAPP laws.

California, I believe, has a pretty good one. I think a few other states have tried something similar but were beaten in court? Washington maybe? I forget exactly.

 

Hmm, it looks like California's is mostly in regard to free speech.

California has a unique variant of anti-SLAPP legislation. In 1992 California enacted Code of Civil Procedure § 425.16, a statute intended to frustrate SLAPPs by providing a quick and inexpensive defense.[6] It provides for a special motion that a defendant can file at the outset of a lawsuit to strike a complaint when it arises from conduct that falls within the rights of petition or free speech. The statute expressly applies to any writing or speech made in connection with an issue under consideration or review by a legislative, executive, or judicial proceeding, or any other official proceeding authorized by law, but there is no requirement that the writing or speech be promulgated directly to the official body. It also applies to speech in a public forum about an issue of public interest and to any other petition or speech conduct about an issue of public interest.

 

I find myself wanting some form of closure on this like a breakup / fuck Jesse / apology statement from the rest of the Band or PMT or something.

 

This thread is infuriating.

 

My heart continues to break for Andrea and the kids.

 

my friend Ari Cristos has relayed this story:

"My buddy Abhi and I were at a bad books show and we were chilling outside to meet the band, I mostly wanted to see Kevin Devine at the time, and Andy hull like lit a cigarette and flicked it immediately. Abhi was like yo that’s a full cigarette man you crazy! And Andy replied with something akin to “listen here habib we don’t need anymore 7-11s around.” It was weird, we were both very taken aback. He followed it up with IM JUST FUCKIN WITH YA and lit abhi’s cigarette for him, Kevin apologized pretty vehemently on behalf of him which was very kind of him. The rest of the band was cool, they all bonded over grandaddy. I regret not really saying much, Abhi laughed it off. It was one of those in hindsight things where we were both like yo that was uhhhh fucked up!"

 

I wish someone would go and “investigate” these terrible people doing all this tumblr detective work.

Edit: also how fucked is that Brian sent them a message and they chose to misinterpret it even after he said “that’s not what I said”

 

What should he have done?

Edit: ignore me. I was catching up.

 

Yeah, I reported the account for targeted harassment. This shit is gross.

If when something like this happens your biggest concern is if someone was 15 or 16 you've got some fucking issues. Especially when there's, what, 5 different public accounts now and I've heard of others off the record.

 

I mean, Zack's basically the only one that "works" there. There's one email address. Haha, it's public.

 

Maybe they’re at least trying to silence her?