Aziz Ansari: Why Trump Makes Me Scared for My Family • Page 3

I think it can largely be attributed to racism and xenophobia in society (among other factors, of course), not merely individual racists as you've been misrepresenting my argument as. But I never said it was that alone.

I'm frustrated with the those who act as though all viewpoints are equally valid. Your posts in here that characterize rightful frustration with Trump supporters as being part of the problem are harmful imo.

 

First of all I apologize if I misrepresented your position.

Having said that, do you think it's important to understand where the sentiment of racism and xenophobia comes from? Does Trump actually address those sentiments or is he merely getting an emotional rise out of people?

I disagree with the position that all viewpoints are not equally valid. Maybe they aren't equally logical or equally factual. But everyone has different experiences in their life, experiences that I could never understand, a life I could never live. These experiences shape people's perspective. Fostering an environment, maybe if it's just on this forum, of understanding rather than judgement and accusations is important in discussing these issues.

Apologies again if I misunderstood your position.

 

I think it's okay to seek understanding as to where racism and xenophobia come from, but disagree with any explanation that seeks to make excuses for the people or institutions that perpetuate oppression.

We differ significantly then. Transphobic or Anti-immigrant rhetoric, for instance, is never valid regardless of the experiences of those who express it. The belief that oppressive attitudes should be held as equally important parts of any form of dialogue comes from an incredibly privileged position - one that ignores the experiences of those that are routinely exposed to violence or other harm as a result of such rhetoric. I think making any environment safe from bigotry is far more important than promoting the exchange of ideas that bring people harm. Similar to why I favor pursuits of liberation for marginalized groups rather than seeking some surface-level equality of opportunity that disappears when viewed through the lense of oppression.

 

I TOTALLY get what you are saying, and will probably continue this conversation tomorrow but for now I will say this.

The original poster who expressed support for Trump, to my memory, never made any mention of any racist or oppressive beliefs unless I missed a post or two. If I did please correct me.

The first path of rebuttal was to merely write a Trump supporter off as being "bullshit" (another poster said that, not you). I commented that this wasn't helpful to debate, I think it was then that you employed the racism path.

People aren't born with the desire to oppress others. They are raised into that mentality. While I think such ideas are repugnant and disgusting I find that I am able to have much more productive conversations with people when I am not dismissive of their positions.

My point is, do you think someone who lives in Nogales, Arizona might have a different opinion on immigration than someone who lives in New York city or New Haven? Are we writing hypothetical person of Nogales off as a racist even though they have a remarkably different perspective on immigration than people in New Haven? Is that fair?

 

Trump's entire platform is built upon bigotry. I think it's more than fair to be upset with someone for supporting a politician that seeks to bring harm on vulnerable communities. I admit the bullshit comment was not substantive nor did it contribute to a dialog, but i doubt it was ever intended to. Your reply was more concerning to me for the reasons I previously outlined.

Of course two people living in different situations will have different perspectives. The problem is when those in somewhere like your example of Nogales resort to racist or xenophobic beliefs or behaviors to cope with their situation. Living in a border community does not make racism more acceptable. Racism itself is of much greater concern because, as a system of dominance/oppression, it has the ability to bring far more violence on already disadvantaged communities than a personal judgment of a leftist New Yorker does. It is disingenuous and harmful to equate the two in any way.

EDIT: I think part of the distance between us on this is that you seem to view racism primarily on an individual level. The problem with that is that it fails to fully explain the gaps between the privileged and disadvantaged in the broader culture or society. I care little about squabbles over whether a single individual is a racist or not. Instead, I'm more concerned that a candidate like Trump continues to legitimize a wave of outrage directed not at those who actually bring harm to people, but instead at those already vulnerable because of these systems that have been in place throughout the history of this nation. If Trump can amass a sea of voters despite espousing blatantly fascist ideas, it makes already harmful policies seem moderate in relation.

 

Pretty much. I voted for Bernie in the Massachusetts primary. He lost. And now in November, I will vote for Hillary.

Any Bernie supporter with a basic understanding of the issues and what is at stake with a Trump presidency will do the same. There is a reason why Bernie isn't running as an independent: he knows it would help Trump win. He said this himself over a year ago when asked if he would run as an independent. It would be selfish and hurt the country.

If only some of his most die-hard supporters actually felt the same way the guy they're supporting does.

 

There are perfectly valid reasons to not feel comfortable voting for either. Some of the Politics forum posters would have a lot more to say than I do about it but suffice to say I've read the argument happen a few times in that thread and both sides (voting to stop trump vs not voting for either candidate) have valid points.

 

I responded to you, listening multiple things Trump has actually said himself he would do/wants to do. Unless that reply was deleted, I'm not seeing that you said anything in response to it.

 

This is sort of my point. If you were having a discussion with a Trump supporter from Nogales I would hope you would at least recognize why Trump's message would be attractive to that person. It's quite easy for the New York leftist to dismiss the resident of Nogales as simply a racist xenophobe when the New Yorker has no concept of what it is like to live in a dangerous border town. Meanwhile the racist xenophobe continues to be a racist xenophobe and is not in any way swayed by the finger-wagging of the New York leftist.

You're correct that Trump is capitalizing on a wave of outrage that has been festering in white working class communities for decades. My point is that the outrage exists with or without Trump, those people exist. Someone should address them. The past 2 decades of writing people off as racist xenophobes has only exacerbated the problem. No one was listening to what these people were saying, and we let them grow into this cesspool of rage. Nothing about Trump's rise surprises me one bit.

And yes, I do view people as individuals and address them as such. I reject the notion of racial, ethnic, and cultural monoliths.

 

I love Aziz. BUT, I'll be voting for Trump.

 

Just spectating from the north here. How the hell does Trump have so many supporters? WTF

 

You read that article?

 

So has anyone ever heard any Clinton supporters give real reasons for voting for her, other than she's not Trump? Just curious, because I haven't. I know it's kind of off topic, but everyone knows Trump is a racist, problem is that some just don't care.

 

This was a very well-written article by Aziz. It's a shame how people like Donald Trump spew such hateful rhetoric and the media turns it into soundbites and headlines without very much meaningful discussion. Hearing this hate speech should make us want to learn more about other cultures/beliefs like Islam and become more informed on our views of people who may be different, not just shun an entire group of people we don't know because some rich a**hole says we should.

These 2016 Presidential campaigns are exposing a lot of problems with the election process, as well as within each party themselves. The fact that Trump has become the nominee shows how badly the GOP needs to sit down, re-prioritize and figure out which issues truly matter most if they plan on winning any elections going forward. Same goes for the split among the Left between Clinton/Sanders. Although Hillary has basically secured the nomination outright, the issue with super-delegates definitely deserves some reconsideration. Like Trump, Clinton definitely has her demons too, and I'm afraid that we'll end up passing on another candidate that we have such positive views about like Sanders. The fact that we have narrowed it down to Trump/Clinton and people are just deciding between the lesser of two evils, our two-party system does not seem like the best way to go in finding a leader for our country, and 3rd party candidates don't get nearly enough spotlight to even be in the discussions of most people.

 

It's always interesting when someone announces that they do not remotely care about the well-being of others.

 

It's always interesting when someone announces that they do not remotely care about the well-being of others.

 

... I'm not sure you know how the quote feature works.

 

She will continue a vast majority of Obama's policies and will appoint at least one (possibly two) liberal Supreme Court Justices within her first term alone, which will guarantee the country moves to the progressive left for decades and help protect basic human rights such as a woman's right to choose, gay marriage (which Trump has said he would try to overturn by appointing a conservative Justice) and transsexual rights.

 

Why is she better than Bernie? Her voting record doesn't reflect that she was always in favor of gay marriage / transsexual rights, she is a certified war hawk / interventionist, supports fracking, takes unlimited money from wall street / big banks / various other corporate interests... the list goes on. I suppose I should say, do Clinton supporters also agree with all of these things that their candidate has done / supported? If so, why? Yes, it's great she will appoint progressive justices. Bernie also would have done that. I just don't understand why Clinton is a better candidate than Bernie. Feels bad man.

 

At this point isn't it why is she better than Trump? I have major concerns about Hillary as well, but we can't cling to Bernie, as much as I would've liked it's just not going to happen.

 

Oh no, I totally understand how it works.

 

I'm not clinging to anything, I just genuinely want to hear one of her supporters say the reasons she's a better choice than Bernie. I have asked in many, many forums to no avail. I just want to understand why she deserves my vote, just one time, other than that she's not trump. I would vote for a fucking tin can over Trump, that doesn't do it for me.

 

I'm not voting for either, but it's not that they choose Clinton over Sanders on principle, but that Sanders legitimately has no path to the Whitehouse while Clinton does.

 

He did when they chose to vote for Clinton over Sanders though, no? Also, contrary to popular belief, the superdelegates don't vote until the convention. I know the DNC likes to overlook this fact, and encourage everyone else to do the same, but saying he has no path to the presidency is factually false. I'm not delusional, I know he won't be the nominee, but all this bias from the beginning is so disheartening.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not she's better than Bernie. Personally, I voted for Bernie in my state's primary but that is no longer a factor. Bernie lost. Hillary won. And now the discussion is whether or not she's better than Trump.