Accountability in Music • Page 411

Imagine typing those posts and then being surprised that people are mean to you lol

 

What is happening in here

 

Ok I’ll do it.

@ScruffGruff, I read through a few of your comments in the Eminem thread and you’re right- everyone draws their own line on separating art vs. artist. However, public support for that artist demonstrates that you’re valuing that person’s artistic output over the person that they abused. In the case of Jesse Lacey, which seems to be the “mental gymnastics” you refer to there, his art is literally just his diary about treating young women terribly, which to me, has always been the issue with “separating art and artist” in the emo scene. The emo scene is predicated in the notion that these songs are from the heart and soul- they ARE the artist and if the artist is telling us he is a bad man and we are rewarding him for that, it becomes a problem.

I am much less versed in the world of hip hop and I’m not really old enough to have understood the cultural impact of Eminem’s record in 2000. Do I think he LITERALLY wanted to murder his wife? No, but I think it’s extremely shitty to write that song and many of the other things he’s written about women. I think he is approaching Kitt from more of a dramatic storytelling perspective, but did we need another man writing a dramatic story about committing violence against women? Probably not then and certainly not now. The entire history of mankind is written by men and is often about violence against women. It’s the legacy of our species - after 2000 years or 2020 years, it isn’t interesting or revolutionary anymore, if it ever was. It only serves to punch down at a disenfranchised portion of society.

I hope that helps explain a bit. I see that you’ve chosen to go the troll route in the rest of your posts and understand that putting effort into this reply was likely futile, but maybe not!

 

Yikes

 

carry on

 

I think I'm supposed to ban you at this point, but I feel like this could be informative for you.

 

It’d be easier to engage you if you demonstrated any chill. If you’re genuinely curious, maybe... slow down? Post less? Your posts in here haven’t exactly painted the picture of someone who wants to talk in good faith.

 

I get how that would escalate things for you, but when I skimmed the initial thread... Things weren't great there, either? If I were in Jason's shoes, I'd probably feel about the same! But, that was a bunch of people, & it's not this thread right now, so whatever, moving on.

You gotta understand that there's different versions of "asshole artist," though, right? Which... I guess I gotta go back to that thread I wanted to move on from, 'cause the conflating of being problematic & being abusive was one of the big problems there, wasn't it?

Like, even bringing Hayley into it is super messy 'cause, one, she was a kid when she wrote that. Two, it's a far different version & level of problematic than Eminem. Three, she actually did go out of her way to disavow the track, as you said, which is a very different response from what a lot of artists do. And four, she herself was the victim of shitty behavior for years (which, by itself, doesn't inherently excuse being shitty one's self, but when factored into how minor her offense of writing slut-shaming lyrics as a kid was, etc... yeah), which is comes into play on her fantastic solo album Petals for Armor, by the way.

A lot of what you seem to be trying to argue for is nuance. But, ironically, the thing that you simultaneously seem to be having the hardest time getting is nuance. Accountability isn't the simplistic "cancel culture" that it's painted as sometimes.

(Also, for the record, it's funny to me that one of your angry posts here mentioned Biden. If you knew how politics is discussed on this site, you'd know that our community does not like him, at all, lol, & is largely split between "I will not vote for him no matter what" & "I will only vote as an act of risk mitigation based on what the competing administration is doing.")

 

not sure if it makes sense to post this in this accountability thread or the entertainment one because i'm not sure which one she falls under more, but there are rumblings of Hillary Duff trafficking her son or something??

also not sure if a spoiler is needed in this thread? idk.

thought it was odd to see her trending with like 20k tweets and that's what most of the tweets are referencing but no one is linking to anything, just all saying the same thing like, "i hope this isn't true!" and "first Doja and now Duff! oh no!" which how i guess Twitter works these days?

 

Uhhhh what

 

I think its fine to not support someone for violent and misogynistic lyrics, but its definitely more of a concern for violent and misogynistic actions. A lot of times they get lumped together, and I think the general impact of vague "controversy" attracts fans to these artists regardless of theoretical abuse vs. legitimate documented abused. One of my biggest issues with accountability is that I still believe the news generated from an artists doing something wrong is a net gain on their career, leaving very few artists, usually those far removed from their peak of relevance, facing any consequences no matter how fucked up their actions are.

And even then, very few artists have been "canceled", people have stopped listening but more people have taken the "we have to separate the art from the artist" stance. This is inherently flawed when the artist uses their controversial words and actions to generate news coverage in an environment with very limited coverage to begin with. It becomes a good career move to do something fucked up, be a piece of shit, get the clicks, get the blogs fighting about it, then getting your name and music out there above artists who just exist without the controversy.

There are still huge cultural, systematic flaws that allow abusive artists to be celebrated and profitable. Its entirely fucked and I hate it, its feels like when we bring up some issues its like yelling into the void, because we have no power to effect the general consensus on artists (except for maybe Brand New, but even they have a Reddit worshipping them to this day). In a way it feels like being a piece of shit is just a marketing tactic, and we have no recourse for upholding accountability when people use the system for personal gain.

I don't really have a point, just that things are nuanced and frustrating. I personally make the choice not to support abusive artists, or those who work with abusive artists, but my lines are different from everyone here and individual choices will always be inferior to any systematic change. Things are still fucked.

Also fuck Joe Biden and fuck Trump, both pieces of shit.

 

I never thought I'd have to google "Hillary Duff human trafficking" but here we are, it apparently comes from this?

 

Lol thats the dumbest shit in the world. I think he has like sunscreen on him he isnt taped

 

Apparently Hilary posted a picture of her son on insta stories with her son naked in the background but going to human trafficking from that is a major leap

 

i searched hilary duff on twitter and read 3 tweets and my iq instantly dropped by 90 points (it is now 0) thanks

 

Well, if you just wanna have honest, sincere discourse, as you've said, then "just being silly" in that way, in regards to this topic, really isn't a great idea. Especially when you're talking to people who are pretty well connected to the damaging side of it all.

I don't think "home territory" is the right framing. Things were ugly in there, so Jason brought you into here so that he could tap out of what was clearly an unhealthy argument for him to get into, while still having the issues get addressed by others in a thread specificly built for those issues.

I legitimately don't know the Hayley/Eminem collab, but based on a quick search, seems like something that happened years ago? And, when you're talking problematic artists vs abusive ones, I feel like deciding when to collaborate vs when not to is more nuanced. People's awareness evolves w/ time, & contents of the present song play a part, too. For example, I think Justin Vernon featured on an Eminem track a few years ago, only to want taken off when he heard what the lyrics to the final song were (not like they were in the studio together while the whole thing was written & recorded).

And, there's more context to the Brand New thing than "person sees other person w/ Daisy avatar & abruptly calls said person an asshole"? Jason already mentioned his personal stake in that case, & also, it came in the context of a bunch of super long posts that seemed to be writing off any criticism of the lyrics. Which, again, seems like an example of ironically throwing out nuance while arguing for nuance.

 

I'm not twisting anything. I'm just responding to things as you bring 'em up in here. The narrative is already twisted. Remember when I mentioned having chill & posting less? One of the many reasons why that's a good strategy is... this.

And, by the way, your initial post apparently started w/ "Ugh I’m going to get banned for this comment but I’m drinking tonight so here goes." Which, um... One, why were you surprised when banning was thrown around when you brought it up first? And, two, maybe drunken posting wasn't your finest choice, lol.

Wait, "willingness to forgive"? Again, I don't think I'm the one twisting the narrative. Maybe I need a second cup of coffee before trying to follow this more, lol. And, for the record, I personally haven't called you "a piece of shit."

Also, for the record, I'm currently staff at a church & the president of a summer church camp. My entire fucking worldview is based on the concept of forgiveness, lol. (Though, another fundamental part of my worldview is that accountability is such a big deal that even the Creator of the universe, Who was able to create simply by speaking, had to take on the form of the created & suffer a terrible death in order to create the means by which forgiveness can even happen. But, maybe I shouldn't bring theology into an already contentious conversation, lol.)

 

Ok. Um. This is a lot.

First of all... "I truly believe that his punishment is much much worse than the crime he committed. (He kissed a 15 year old girl. He was a coach)." This... isn't a great series of words? Regardless of context. Like, as someone working w/ students in Pennsylvania post-Sandusky... & even w/out Sandusky, just having years of exposure to this kinda thing... fuck. That's really fucking bad. You gotta understand how fucking bad that is.

There's nothing wrong w/ still loving a family member in spite of something like this. Life is complicated. But, if your takeaway is to now, by default, take the side of powerful, abusive men, instead of the vulnerable youth they've taken advantage of... THAT part? That kinda IS evil, tbh.

Love your brother-in-law? Yeah, sure. Have a broken heart over that situation? If you didn't, I'd wonder if you were a sociopath. Extrapolating that into support for the kind of abuse that people I care very deeply for have experienced & been wrecked by? (And, I'm pretty sure some people here have actual first hand experience with?) No. Absolutely not.

 

But, I'm asking you, please, understand why an adult coach kissing a 15-yr-old girl has to have severe repercussions.

I'm not gonna debate religion with you. I've tried to engage you in good faith, more than I normally do, but if you're gonna keep bringing up Joe Biden, Hayley Williams, the Bible, etc., then I guess I should've trusted my instincts.

 

Wow this took an unexpected turn

 

It wasn't.

 

Uhhhhhh fuck that predatory piece of shit coach? I was going to write some more about nuance with artists but I can't engage anymore I'm done yikes

 

Yeah, locking pedophiles away for a long time is a good thing. I don't think the punishment is just for kissing the kid, it's to keep him from possibly taking it further with another.

 

Sometimes you see someone being antagonistic about stuff like this but then a handful of helpful users break the issues down clearly and with more respect than the original user was giving and you can see the gears start turning in their head and they learn something new and gain reverence. I was hoping this would be one of those times.