2017 NFL Draft Thread [Archived] Football • Page 34

You literally said Mosley went at a certain spot and you won't take Foster above that spot because he's not as good as Mosley.

Leonard Williams and Jalen Ramsey were both frequently mocked in that range though. Not saying Thomas and Adams can't slip, just saying that the chances of them both being available at 9th or 10th are about the same. If the Jags stay put, like I said in this scenario. If Carolina trades up for Fournette, then it mostly depends on who they trade with. One or both of Thomas and Adams are likely going in the top three as it stands right now.

Malik Hooker and Jamal Adams are already better than Tashaun Gipson and Barry Church but that's irrelevant. It's not a contingency plan. Realistically, Adams is not the pick, stop trying to justify this ridiculous scenario where they draft a guy whose contract is shorter than the guys we have signed lol. They signed Barry Church to a four year deal on Eric Weddle money. They are not drafting a safety fourth overall.

 

I'm not just comparing one player to another player though. I mentioned several other examples. Overall, better talent at LB is OFTEN found later than you are suggesting we take Foster.

They most certainly as hell were not. Jax was the LOWEST they expected Ramsey and he was frequently mocked in the top 4. Leonard Williams was all but certain a top 4 pick throughout sports media when he fell. It's just that you're treating the "consensus" top 5 players like its some sort of Bible. Like you'd be shocked if Jamal Adams, a strong safety, fell out of the top 5. You and I both know the draft isn't going to fall like this mismash of Kiper and Mayock mock drafts predicts it will.

I think a lot more teams like pass rushers that much, than teams like safeties that much. People would consider a trade up for Solomon Thomas. Nobody is trading shit for Jamal Adams even if they're both seen as elite prospects. Hell, if you're so sure the Bears love Adams then why do you think THEY are comfortable trading down? Because if anyone's going to fall it's him (and Foster). Has nothing to do with his talent either, just his position.

Nevermind that Eric Weddle is underpaid and we overpay everybody, I guess context doesnt matter in this discussion? Did you miss the memo that we also paid 6.5 M AAV to a runningback that we aren't going to use? If Caldwell wanted to make a statement about a player's security with money, it wouldn't be spending 6.5 AAV on an average strong safety, I can assure you that. We signed the cheapest startable safety we could find and are still looking to upgrade at some point.

This year isn't likely but if Thomas and Fournette are BOTH gone, dude maybe is all im saying. Adams is just good enough to push the needle for me because I actually really don't like the idea of starting Church long-term. Just like I never liked Ivory and would be glad to waste that money, which is meaningless chump change given the Jags cap space, and draft Fournette.

 

I never said you were comparing the players outright. Just that your justification about one guy going at one spot versus here is irrelevant.

Yes they were. Ramsey was mocked to the Jaguars often and even to the Ravens. Kiper and Mayock are not even remotely close to the only people saying this. Might as well say a mismash of Anton and WalterFootball because it's the same thing. 49ers are very high on Thomas, Bears are very high on Adams. Jaguars have expressed heavy interest in Thomas as well. Based off everything we know right now, this is where we're at. It could and probably will change. But right now, Thomas and Adams are both projected top three picks and I would be shocked if both players were available at four.[/QUOTE]

This entire discussion exists because you're ignoring the context so haha.

Did you miss the regime change? This is Coughlin's team now. Coughlin did not sign Ivory. Coughlin went after Barry Church. From what I understand, Allen is favored more in Chicago than Thomas. If Fournette and Thomas are gone, the pick is Allen or trying to trade down. Howard could also be in play. Same with Foster. Adams should be the pick but Church shouldn't be on the team so...The pick is not Adams. They addressed that need in free agency. Period haha. It's not Adams.

 

I actually saw most mocks say Tennessee or Dallas and then sometimes Jaguars.

i mean. Whatever. I don't know a strong safety that ever went in the top 5 (Sean Taylor was a free safety right?) and I know a lot of drafts where the projected top 5 was totally off so. Just going off the empirical evidence here.

It's actually still Dave Caldwell's decision how much to give players and whether that money means their roster spot is secure or not. Coughlin had a lot more favorable connections with players and was able to bring more people in the building for free agency interviews. That does not in any way mean that the rest of the front office sees Barry Church as anything more than a stop-gap. 6.5 million per season is prove-it money in the 2017 NFL cap.

 

But the Jaguars and Ravens were still there is all I'm saying.

Irrelevant evidence. You're ignoring the fact that this discussion is based entirely off of current knowledge. It could change. But right now, this is what we're working with. A strong safety not going in the top five is irrelevant. How many have been projected there this much?

Neat. The front office is not drafting Jamal Adams because they just signed someone to a four year contract. They aren't replacing a guy who has yet to play a single down in Jacksonville. It's not happening haha.

 

drafting a guy isn't necessarily replacing someone. It takes time to develop and then you want to see competition between the two players. It's a two-to-three year transition period. It's not like we draft Adams and then August 1 are like "sorry Barry just keep the 12 million we guaranteed you but we dont need you anymore". Drafting a rookie isn't the same as just signing someone else over the top of him. Like I said, Church would still play out his guarantees as the starter, and then have an outside chance at proving he deserves to stay on the roster over Tashaun Gipson.

Church by all means should expect to have to still compete for his job at 6.5 mill AAV. That's not the kind of money that says "we trust you unconditionally." That's the kind of money that says "we respect that you were a starter previously", and that's it.

 

Dude lol. They aren't drafting a guy fourth overall to sit on the bench. Certainly not when Adams is legitimately one of the most pro ready safeties in the last decade. They aren't doing it, stop trying to twist things haha. Church is their guy this year. Granted, they did sign Campbell to a deal equal to Malik. So they clearly aren't above doing painfully stupid moves. But the point is there's absolutely no logical reason to do this and every move they've made indicates they aren't doing it.

 

I still think it'd be smart to think ahead when it comes to a hard position to fill. Safeties take a couple years to get good on a regular basis, doesn't matter how they were projected! They are hard to find and when you find them, most aren't ready right away to deal with NFL passing games, and they are a huge liability and cost you points and games. Why not draft a polished one while you can, and use a cheap veteran for awhile to protect your defense until that rookie knows his NFL boundaries.

 

If you want a first round player you get him when you can in the first round IMO

 

Like, people say the passing game is so complex that it's best to sit quarterbacks until they're ready.

Guess who has to understand the passing game the most on the defensive side of the ball? Safeties. It's a huge adjustment for them too. Even Jamal Adams could use some time watching film and honing his technique, and getting toughened up more on special teams. That's what the Seahawks did with Kam Bam.

I feel like we totally wasted Jonathan Cyprien's potential because we expected him to be able to handle zone coverage right away.

 

This isn't thinking ahead! This is you not liking something and wanting a different outcome haha. Church was not signed to be a gap guy. He signed a four year deal equal to the STARTING safety Eric Weddle. Come on dude haha. It's okay to be wrong sometimes.

The immediate 180 you've done on this page is absolutely hilarious.

 

What 180?

1) Fournette
2) Solomon Thomas
3) Jamal Adams

(assuming Garrett would def be gone), that has been my top 3 for the Jags for quite some time now. We in 4 years have still not found a safety that I trust when any good quarterback throws the ball deep and the camera has to move downfield. I feel anxious every time that happens. We need a fucking safety either this draft or next and this draft has two damn good ones dangling right in front of us. I would LOVE to trade down a few spots and take whichever of Adams/Hooker falls.

 

I personally would like for my team to draft a player good at playing football

I hope it happens

 

I don't think you've ever mentioned Solomon Thomas. Jonathan Allen was the guy you mentioned a lot more.

And that's neat. The 180 I'm talking about is the clear attempt at psyching yourself into a justification of taking Adams when we already have his position filled. Constantly bringing up precedent regarding the position at draft time while also talking up its importance as if the Jaguars are immune to these things that 31 other teams apparently all fall for. They aren't taking Adams. They signed a strong safety to a four year contract and it wasn't to have him play back-up. Hooker and Adams are both amazing prospects and far better than Gipson/Church. That doesn't change the fact that we have Gipson and Church. Trubisky is a better QB than Bortles. QB is a more important position. Bortles has a shorter contract. You literally can form a better case for the Jags taking Trubisky than you can Adams at this point. (Obviously kidding but following your logic leads to strange places)

 

You will but he'll get hurt.

 

like when does a safety ever get signed off another team, and that's a good thing??

I feel like literally all the best safeties in the NFL are home-grown talent that spent their whole career on their respective teams. Both Seahawks, Eric Berry, T.J. Ward, Devin McCourty, Reshad Jones, Weddle was on SD for over a decade... and then ones who moved like Jairus Byrd immediately stopped being good on their new team.

We have two free agents who both didn't get resigned because they arent sophisticated enough to handle better passing offenses. Great. Glad we took safeties who are a step behind the curve off the Browns/Cowboys' hands (two bad passing defenses too, YUCK.) Cheers to another year of random big plays ruining an otherwise good defense. Maybe we'll find someone to groom in 2018. or 2019. or 2020. OR just never have a good safety and never make the playoffs because of it.

 

I think exactly the same thing. But the Jags aren't making the playoffs because of bad offensive line and quarterback play, first and foremost haha.

 

well theres my full reason why i want a home-grown drafted safety and why Barry fucking Church matters 0% to me when it comes to having the option of Adams and Hooker (if the Panthers were to forsake me and take Fournette from us.)

I understand your point that I am not the Jaguars and they do not think like me. But honestly I think any opinion that doesn't think safeties are the hardest position to fill aside from QB and LT is a wrong opinion. That's something that we need to do to get good... and if we wasted 6.5 mill on Barry Church, just to replace him 2 years from now with an actually good safety then, welp, they call that a "sunk cost" in business school. You don't go accepting other losses and missing opportunities to recover, in order to make up for a loss you've already taken.

 

The Jags should go OT first round in my opinion

 

If there was even one OT that I liked enough to take in the top 5, I'd take that player over Leonard Fournette. Talent is dry at the top this year for pass blocking tackles.

 

My point still stands

 

Sorry divison rival-ing

 

Trying to remove it

 

But it's not a loss! They JUST SIGNED HIM lol. What did they sign him and then immediately have a Gob Bluth "I've Made a Huge Mistake" moment? This again boils down to you not liking it and wanting different.

 

Can't wait to see the reaction when Bouye busts too