Accountability in Music • Page 570

Nobody likes me here, so I'm beyond being either heard or being "scared off", whatever the hell that means on the internet, so fuck it

Creating a thread to discuss various ways not to support artists whose toxic behaviour you don't agree with is its own form of toxic behaviour. Constantly vocalizing that anyone who slips up or misbehaves is beyond reparation and undeserving of the chance to change is toxic behaviour. Insisting that your opinion is across the board correct because of this life experience or that is toxic behaviour. This thread is rife with its own toxic behaviour and always has been. I've been wrong many times before, and will be again. I will need forgiveness and patience, and so will you. Stop pretending like you won't, because man the fragility from those who point the finger most makes this thread almost comical at points.

People will hurt one another in life. It happens. It shouldn't happen repeatedly, and it shouldn't happen with cruelty, but it will happen. We're not children here, and we should understand these dynamics of human relations without insisting on the kind of absolutes that are constantly presented in this thread.

 

This...is not what most people are talking about when they refer to the toxic nature of the thread, lol. You can, and should, call out problematic behavior or abuse. The thread in and of itself is not "toxic behavior".

 

I’ve done my best to avoid blocking people in the past, but i’m done. I enjoy certain aspects of this website and always somehow get dragged into others that are completely unhealthy. I truly wish everyone here the best and hope silenced voices can be heard in a safe and less hostile environment. Peace.

 

I know I said I wouldn't say any more but I'll attempt to leave it at this:

I've interacted with many people who have left the site/stop posting as much because of things in this thread and it is very shitty to see their words twisted to fit the narratives of whatever ego stroking contest is happening in here right now. They'd probably still be around to post if conversation didn't always devolve into this. I've obviously been guilty of it in the past but like...the conversation just happened last week and we're already back at this.

 

Ian Cohen has had years to make reparations for what he wrote and change. He has not.

Needle Drop has had years to make reparations for being a fake Leftist alt-right-courting edgelord. He has not.

Pinegrove dude has had years to actually take steps to make amends for what he's done to people in his life. Instead he chose to performatively pretend that he did and then go about his life as if nothing happened. Ditto for the dude from Tiny Moving Parts.

These are people who had ample chance to "make reparations and change" but chose not to. So yeah, those people are going to get criticized for that. Forgiveness is earned. Empathy is earned. Patience is earned. These people aren't entitled to those things any more than they are entitled to their platforms.

Also, Jesse fucking Lacey preyed on children. There's no coming back from that. Sorry!

 

who dragged you in lol you literally came in, made some passive post about reading comprehension and then asked “does anyone actually learn anything here”

head scratching

 

very cool how people here pick and choose when to care about people’s mental health and emotions. y’all are so fucking fake, it’s wild.

 

This thread has been good in the sense that I can find out when artists are doing shitty things so I know not to support them. Some point along the line here I figured that it would be best to steer far fuckin clear of any attempt at discussion and that still sounds about right rn

 

Anyway, I need to stop giving people like the ones who participated in today's latest dogpile (not @-ing any of you, you know who you are though!) the ammunition they need to keep derailing this thread and making the conversation about me instead of the people it should be about. I won't be posting anything in here anymore other than tweets or other social media posts containing actual callouts of people in the industry.

Y'all are gonna have to find another boogeyman to use to change the subject from your problematic favs from here on out. I wish you all good luck in that endeavor!

 

I will likely regret posting this, but this is just not fucking true. I vividly remember when me, nohandstoholdonto, and several others attempted to have a conversation like this a couple years ago and were absolutely eviscerated by users in this thread. To be clear, I am NOT suggesting you or anyone else involved in the discussion today was a part of that; I genuinely don’t remember. But I was told to shut the fuck up, called childish for expressing those feelings, and made to feel like a piece of shit for daring to suggest I harbored guilt over losing my (at the time) favorite band. So let’s try to be honest about the kind of discourse that is and isn’t deemed acceptable here.

 

I was having this conversation in another chat, but I wanted to put some thoughts down in here because I was/am just as responsible and guilty of it than anybody in the past. After the conversation the other day and others calling for it to be addressed and people to recognize their role in the hostility and toxicity in the conversations that took place in this thread and others in the Music forum in the past, I thought I should do so.

So yeah, I was one of, if not the biggest, perpetrators of that when instances of abuse, harrasment, and othe issues of hurtful actions arose in threads about artists. And I was that way for a really long time and definitely sucked the air out of conversations more, took up space in the thread that should have been open for others more apt to speak on the issue than I contributed to them. I solely or partially contributed to probably multiple users feeling unwelcome here and causing them to leave this site for good or long term.

And that was pretty much all I contributed. That's it. Maybe someone read one of my posts and got something out of it, but tangibly all I did was suck the air out of conversations, made people feel worse about themselves or mad/angry/upset, and cause people to leave. And I've tried to step away from these conversations to prevent myself from doing that anymore and causing that to others. And that's not enough because I still owe people apologies and find other ways to rectify what I've done, but it's a start.

After 5+ years it's pretty clear that these conversations always steer and end up the same way. Multiple groups and/or subgroups of users lashing out, talking over each other, being accusatory, bad faith attempts at characterizing others' intent for either being passionate about allegations for selfservice or not being fully on the "fuck this person" mentality immediately and working through it. The way we have these conversations needs to change for the betterment of the site, each others' wellbeing and mental/emotional health, and the actual process/success of accoutability.

We can't keep posting "fucking scum" "fuck that" and "throw them in the trash" to every twitter thread or article that gets posted in here (within reason of course, fuck JL and others obviously). We also can't keep coming in here with the same whataboutism and making our first reaction/post an obtuse defense or bad attempt to play "devils advocate." We can't keep having these same conversations in this thread, pushing people to their emotional limits, flinging shit at each other, and making these conversations toxic, unwelcoming, and driving people away or to harm.

I wish early on there would have been more stringent rules on what is or isn't allowed in this thread or some sort of site-wide changes to quell instances like these, and I get resources/time are limited and mods are volunteers and the forum is only part of Jason's site. But, having this open space for whatever unproductive conversation takes place around accusations and news of abuse/harassment/bad behavior isn't serving realy anyone. For those that have chimed in and said you have lurked and learned from this thread, I'm sorry you (often) have to wade through pages of terrible and detracting conversations like the ones that took place today to benefit from threads like these.

I've been trying to recognize when I run afoul of everyting above and coming to terms that as much as I want to, it's better to sit back and lurk during conversations instead of jumping on the pile-on. For the frequent "contributors" to these instances of conversations in here, I'd ask that we all listen and read more than we post, treat each other with a bit more kindness and understanding, and let those most involved/impacted/familiar offer their perspective and give them a space to work things out or contribute if they'd like instead of trying to be the first to post after a tweet and refreshing the page to see who we have to quote reply to next.

Or don't and we can keep doing this every few months for the next 5 years again. Idk, figure it out.

 

I apologize for taking up so much space today. My intent was to address a recurring problem, but it's clear I became a part of that problem when I got frustrated. I want to make this thread (and by extension, the site) more accessible to all kinds of voices and will be listening more to make that possible.

 

can I ask if anything was done re: the user who really instigated this entire situation by strolling in and accusing everyone of virtue signaling and "good boy point" chasing? which led to a frequently posting non-binary member of this community feeling no longer able to post in here because of the comments being made? unless i missed something, which is entirely possible since i've been working or trying to all afternoon, it seems like you're far more concerned with past issues of users leaving the forum and continuing to launch attacks on @Anthony_ and other frequent users of this thread rather than discuss the most recent example of a user chasing another user off this thread and possibly forum as a whole, due to their extremely trash comments.

there is no "good faith" conversations to be had when you make your introductions by slinging around "virtue signaling" and other insulting remarks. you seem very tired of having to come in and be a voice of reason, i am quite tired of bad faith users stirring up shit and then pivoting to the "well i was just trying to have a normal conversation" when their shit gets called on, and the people coming to defense are suddenly labeled as bullies. quite tired.

 

I am concerned with any users feeling unwelcome here, including Carrow and including the women who posted their grievances last week. It appeared tshreve claimed he was leaving of his own volition, but if he hasn't/doesn't, then yes, he needs to be aware about the aggressive/confrontational tone he took (a point I obviously keep returning to) and especially how that's going to look when using a term like "virtue signaling." A part of what goes into that is, as Dylan said above, using this thread for more than simply posting "fuck xyz and anyone who supports them" in response to anything that happens and rarely having actual discussion about accountability, restorative justice, etc. I've admitted to being frustrated and aggressive in the conversation today, which I apologize for, but Dylan seems to be the only user interested in discussing a) how their behavior has made others uncomfortable in the past and b) how we can make a positive change moving forward.

 

(disclaimer apology for taking up space as a non-contributor)

I pissed off a regular w/ ~clout~ in this thread a couple years back and the way she reacted (in aggression and heavy presumption) dug up very old/deep wounds I was unprepared for, and I ran away from that confrontation. that single interaction was ringing in my head for months. still not proud of how I responded, should have stood my ground.

I get that most of you mean well, but imo this thread is not going to change the culture of this music scene, and at the moment is nothing but a container for frustration, defensiveness, disgust and rage. is there a way to have a productive and welcoming container for these feelings that doesn't devolve into a reflection of the worst in us? Idk.

been posting here and on AP for a decade now, mostly lurking these past couple years. I wish I could stop caring about this thread/site/scene entirely since it's given nothing back, not friends or meaning or any real community.

 

This thread can be painful to moderate.

We are always going to have the art vs. artist people whose minds are never going to change.
We have the people who are pissed off and want you to know you are wrong for liking a shitty artist.

Neither of these things are ever going away. I know when there are reported posts in this thread, I personally message the person involved to let them know what is going on and where I stand. I feel like there is a lot of ambiguity when it comes to people really breaking rules. I encourage anyone to message me personally if they feel like they've been attacked. I feel like its helped some users in the past cool down and understand why things grew contentious.

I don't view myself as any type of expert on the area of accountability and will never claim such. My "job" as a moderator is to resolve the infighting and I seriously want to do that. This site should be a vector for learning together. If I can't resolve things, I usually escalate to Jason.

Hope this is helpful. Love you guys.

 

If you read this, I wish you well. All my interactions with you have been great.

 

I chose to delete my posts from last week the following day because after my initial post regarding the 1975/Adam Powell was recognized (rightfully so) as unhelpful, I didn’t respond well to some of the reactions and passive aggressive posts in response to it. I didn’t properly address any part of what upset me. My interaction with those users and the resulting outcome of it left me feeling quite empty, guilty, frustrated...really terrible in just about every way. Furthermore, I have aspects of my life that I am still not comfortable discussing (especially with those who I don’t really know and aren’t users I regularly talk to) that I brought up and then had immense anxiety over. Having parents who never taught me the proper way of communicating in any other way than just shitty, I realize even now I have a lot of work to do and that just because I went to therapy doesn’t mean I’m fixed.

I was unaware of the background of the person I was talking to. It was a user I don’t recall having interactions with prior, and I hadn’t seen their profile until the damage was done. I went about my feelings in all the wrong ways. I am genuinely sorry to her and to those who see me as a problematic person here. That was the last thing I wanted. And if I want people to hear me, I need to listen too.

Knowing I am the reason for a respected user of this community leaving, who actually was a beneficial contributor, I’d chosen to stop posting and start reading only. I will go back to doing that, but I am sorry for what I’ve done.

 

seeing the amount of a-listers signed up for that really drives home how performative all this stuff is. if enough backlash hits then he will be the new monster that they all denounce. then they go to work for some other guy who is every bit as bad but, thankfully, no one's really making enough noise about him yet.

 

In case anyone else didn't understand the context: Why Has David O. Russell Never Answered for Groping His Trans Niece?

 

he has said horrific things to lily tomlin on camera lol

 

that huckabees video is insane. I always cannot believe when he re-enters the room through the fake door, you can’t write that kind of thing

had no clue about the Michael Fassbender allegations. Those are extreme and fucked up

 

Heard Morgan Wallen this morning on a station in Boston for the first time since he was “cancelled.” Heard another song of his just now. Twitter search for latest tweets mentioning his name shows he’s been added back to SiriusXM today as well. So much for that…