Accountability in Music • Page 279

who I guess deleted his post

 

Shocked that an upstanding band like Emmure would tour with AILD

 

haha...true.

 

I hate seeing white performers with black musical influences with black back up dancers or singers. It seems like something they do out of obligation to not appear like they're appropriating. It's something that's bugged me a lot about The 1975's newest stage design with the Jaiy Twins since Matty was rambling in interviews for awhile on how important black conviction was in music and how much he wanted to respect the tradition. I'm a bitter person so it could just be that but this has bugged me for awhile and I'm not sure where else to rant about it.

 

I feel like it’s more of “hey, we would like to have some backup singers/dancers for this tour” and then it’s someone’s job in their camp to try out different singers/dancers.

 

My problem is whoever's job this is may be engaging in tokenism to say "look at how accepting and open minded we are" by selecting black backup folks. Especially where black back up peoples might be just as talented as the white front people but relegated to back up for white acts. This is my black paranoia out in full force.

 

fwiw, it's not paranoia. This absolutely happens and even if it isn't consciously happening in this instance, it's a very real thing - you don't owe anybody justification for pointing it out.

 

I know very little about them, are ALL the dancers POC on this tour? It’s definitely a tough line between actually being inclusive with who you hire and being either performative or exploitive about it.

 

Here's the statement from Georgia that Wil threatened to kill her and himself:

The allegation that he threatened that is very clear if you read the Instagram post to the very end, but almost all reporting on this, even reporting very sympathetic to Georgia doesn't mention that.

When someone says they are going to kill themselves or someone else, one should take the statement seriously. No doubt it had a very traumatic impact on Georgia (as I'm sure it was intended to), but it's also possible it was a rash statement coming from someone already given to manipulation and making lesser threats. That doesn't mean "don't take Georgia seriously" -- please do take her seriously -- but that may be why so few accounts of this story mention the threats to her life or his suicidal intent.

In Wil's recent post he's clearly speaking about Georgia, which Georgia specifically said in the Instagram post above she didn't want him to do, saying so at the very same time she said he threatened to kill her and himself. Though it's hard to criticize anyone for it I think it's more than problematic that Georgia's bandmates and supporters are calling him out in turn. They come across as snarky and unsympathetic to onlookers who don't care or don't know enough of what's going on to see this from Georgia's point of view. I sure don't want anyone to feel like they should be sympathetic to Wil, but many of the posts I'm seeing from Sarah Thompson and Georgia's fans can't help but come across to non-insiders and supporters of Georgia and Camp Cope as mutual combatants in a battle of insults with Wil and his fans.

This sets a bad example for victims of abuse on so many levels.

This is so NOT what one should do if someone who has threatened one's life before throws up a word salad of apologies and excuses, or threatens someone one cares about.

There may not be any further bad consequences to this for Georgia or Camp Cope -- there shouldn't be and probably won't be -- but if she wants what amounts to Will agreeing to restrain from contact or speech about Georgia and other victims and their future partners, to have her fans and bandmates post snarky take-downs of Wil's post just encourages Wil's supporters to speak up for him more, and it validates at least in Wil's supporters minds Wil's choice to post about this which Georgia clearly said she didn't want him to do.

It would be better if Camp Cope and their supporters would not directly call him out -- at least not with sarcastic remarks -- and instead talk about it more indirectly in stories and media they could put online. Talk about how they understand this must be difficult for her and talk about how much they support her work and about these issues in other ways. I am sure they are doing that too, but they'd be better off with fewer sarcastic posts as they do that.

 

but that may be why so few accounts of this story mention the threats to her life or his suicidal intent.

Or maybe it's because reporting of abuse allegations can often be wrought with frivolous handwringing about "both sidesing" stories or full of misinformation?

There's so much nonsense here it's hard to work through it all, but ultimately I'll say: the survivor is not responsible for the reactions towards her. The survivor is not responsible for parsing her language in order to make it easier or more comfortable for the abuser to "restrain from contact or speech." Wil put this statement out after all of this time, and her bandmates and fans are reacting to it. This is in no way some hit on Wil and his fans like you make it out to be. I'm actually amazed you've somehow twisted this whole situation into a problem that Georgia and co. are perpetrating.

Sarah writing a snarky tweet is worse than Wil creating a whole narrative against the survivor of his abuse that he is actually the true victim here? Anybody following Sarah is most likely going to know Camp Cope and know that situation; they have been fighting issues like this for years. You're creating a false equivalency between the behavior of abusers and their fans and the reaction of survivors and their fans towards that abuse, or in response to what the abuser has put out, publicly, online; as if what Sarah and other supporters has been saying in reaction to Wil is just snarky and not at all a criticism of the load of rubbish that whole post is. I'm also unsure who they are supposed to be sympathetic to in their call out; again, this reads to me like you are putting the burden of the "high road" so to speak on Sarah/Camp Cope themselves, like they should just allow him to spread his story without interference. Silence =/= moral high ground like you seem to be equivocating.

This sets a bad example for victims of abuse on so many levels.

Maybe your worst take yet, on so many levels.

 

How you come in here time after time after time with these massive responses that are 96% awful takes is truly baffling.

 

Being brave and speaking your truth, no matter how caustic, is never a bad example for survivors of abuse.

 

That's right, the survivor isn't responsible for the reactions of the abuser. I don't think Georgia has made public comments about Wil since her Instagram post and she shouldn't have to. I was saying when fans of hers try to argue in sarcastic and provocative ways with Wil's band and fans that lowers the level of the dialogue and sets a bad example for what people should do in response to someone who makes serious threats to themselves or to others. Their posts are hardly going to be responded to by Wil and the band anyway, they're going to either be responded to by Wil's fans in ways that don't help the situation or otherwise draw more attention to Wil's band and his rambling statement than they really deserve.

"Sarah writing a snarky tweet is worse than Wil creating a whole narrative against the survivor of his abuse that he is actually the true victim here?"

No, I don't think Sarah's tweets are worse than or even comparable to Wil's statement or past actions.

"Silence =/= moral high ground like you seem to be equivocating."

I didn't suggest silence or equivocation. I suggested Camp Cope's fans could post more general messages of support for Camp Cope and Georgia and talk about Wil's history in less provocative ways, and more about these issues which is a good thing. Not that they shouldn't sound angry, either, but that posts that are more likely to enable hostile, defensive reactions from Wil's fans and maybe the band isn't a good thing because Will threatened suicide and/or homicide.

If that seems like equivocation or ambiguity it may be because I'm not trying to script what "they" all should do any more than what you should do, I'm mainly trying to make the point to that if it was less sarcastic it would be less provocative, and more appropriate in relation to someone who has made threats like Wil has to harm himself and Georgia. If it helps to repeat it, I'm not saying that Georgia is somehow handling this bad or that she's being provocative, I'm saying these few tweets I was commenting on weren't the best way to handle this in a case where an abuser has threatened to kill someone, kill themselves, and where the survivor doesn't want any contact or communication with them.

All of this may not matter so much in this case but it certainly does in so many other cases involving threats of suicide or homicide, which is what Georgia's Instagram post explicitly referred to.

 

What I wanna know is do you truly believe that this is what should really be focused on? Or do you think we should be focusing on someone who is abusive trying to shift the narrative? I just don't get why this your focus especially considering how silencing it feels despite your insistence otherwise.

 

I'm mainly focusing on how this isn't a good thing to do in response to someone who has threatened suicide or to kill someone else. I'm not at all trying to be "silencing". Speak up. Speak out. Be angry if you want be angry. But I'm saying Wil's statement doesn't deserve this kind of attention nor does it help to respond like I'm saying one band member of Camp Cope and a few fans have. Especially not if we're taking seriously Georgia's statement that Wil threatened to kill himself and her, and that she didn't want him to speak about her, any other partners he's abused, or future partners, etc, in the media or on stage ever again.

 

Why do you think it doesn't deserve any attention? Ignoring shit like this is how you encourage it, there's tons of historic evidence to back that up.

 

I haven't posted in here since the last shitstorm btw and I wanna apologize for helping turn it into a bashfest. Definitely isn't the first time I've done it, I got carried away and am trying to do better right now.

 

"Why do you think it doesn't deserve any attention?"

Keep talking about these issues, however you want to talk about them, Fucking Dustin. I'm was trying to suggest better ways to do this that are more helpful to people who are in situations like Georgia's, who have been involved with people who have made serious threats of suicide or homicide. That's more attention, in the long run, not less.

 

That's buying into his exact control mechanism though. "Act this way or I'll do X." I'm not out here saying "Fuck Georgia's life, let's go get internet points!" or anything like that, but we can't all be responsible for what Wil chooses to do. Looking at it as "you need to do this or Wil is going to hurt someone" is not as good of an approach as "Wil has said and done some terrible things and we should speak against his platform because he is going to hurt someone" IMO.

 

Thanks, I think you may be going in the direction I intended to encourage, so I'll leave it at that for now.

 

I think that's what people are doing though, and I don't think there's anything fair about policing their tone

 

Who are you to come in here and dictate how people respond to this? You ignored every critique I said that points out the flaws in your logic and just continue to argue the same points you've already made. What you're actually doing is obfusacating the issue with all these trivial narratives you're writing about how it should and shouldn't be instead of lifting up the voices of those who actually deserve to be heard in this situation. I'm not responding to you anymore because I will no longer continue to let you police the conversation.

 

Pretty soon after Wil released that statement they announced a return show in Melbourne and immediately sold it out. We NEED to continue calling out the bullshit in his statement otherwise nothing will change.

 

Negative attention doesn't drive them to escalate. They do that all on their own.

My abuser promised in the last conversation I agreed to have with him that I'd never have to speak to him again, which was my wish. I asked him to leave me out of his conversations and out of his life. He promised.

He has not once honored that. He smirks at me and addresses me directly in social situations where I have to "behave", he tries to corner me when we run into each other, he follows me. He lies about me to anyone who will listen. It's been FIVE FUCKING YEARS.

He does this, and that's with zero public accountability and nobody "coming at him" or "shaming him", because all of "our" friends chose him - including some in up and coming touring bands on alt labels that I am not physically safe to name publicly.

Come for abusers all you like. Shine a fucking spotlight on their behavior. It's the only thing that makes cockroaches scatter.

 

Big cop energy from the loquacious one