Avengers 4: Endgame (Joe & Anthony Russo April 26, 2019) Movie • Page 85

I more & more wish "Avengers: Infinity War" could be replaced w/ a conceptually similar but narratively tighter "Thanos Quest" film.

Actually show his backstory. Open with a flashback to more human & relatable, less genocidal & abusive motives, maybe showing him w/ a family & whatnot. Make it even more his film, cutting out stuff inessential for his story.

 

No, but to the Brody pieces point, characters relationships to each other and Thanos aren’t dramatized. The movie expects everyone to automatically care because it’s Cap and Iron Man and Gamora and Peter Parker. Moments of actual character connection to what’s happening are very rare, the focus is largely on the spectacle of them all meeting rather than the drama and characterization of it.

It’s why I think the stuff that works best is the Guardians/Iron Man/Wanda stuff, and why I think it was a mistake to snap Wanda and remove her from nearly all of Endgame. She has character moments in Infinity War, her presence in Endgame would have more weight than, say, Ant-Man’s.

It’s one of the largest failures of the MCU, which obviously mostly works and is a success, but their focus on their overarching story really mostly only serves that story or undercuts growth from other movies, all just to get to Infinity War/Endgame and make it make some kind of sense and feel at all satisfying.

I’d argue the MCU is a titanic success of commerce, capitalism, and film production, but largely not a success of artistry.

 

Infinity War and Endgame are the two parts of one story. They are just not called Part 1 and Part 2. Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 1 & Part 2 are one story in two parts.

 

I think splitting up Deathly Hallows was a mistake as well

 

You should go say it’s not successful art in a room full of people working in makeup, costuming, lighting, SFX, etc, etc, etc.

 

^ "film production"

 

Their work is incredible. Truly, truly incredible. And they are underpaid and unsung across the industry.

But that’s essentially saying I shouldn’t criticize stuff.

 

Oh I didn’t realize that those things I listed were film production and not art. I’m sure they would all agree that they don’t do art.

 

That’s not at all what I’m saying

 

considering all of the thousands of elements that go into these films, I really do think they did pretty much the best job that they could have. I think everyone can recognize that they are movies and a franchise that subjectively has worked and are on the whole, positive. I think maybe there is a way narratively that could have delivered more of what you wanted but I don't exactly know how that movie works and still is the success that these are.

 

You can say that every movie should be able to function to a new viewer walking in but like,,,,I just dont think thats the case anymore. That's why I compare these movies more to something akin to a TV show that individual movies, theyve put out like two a year for the past decade, if you're alive in 2019 you almost certainly already have an opinion formed on them.

Does this maybe take a shot at their longevity going into the future and their treatment in the film canon? Probably. But I think it also signals a moment in cinema history that for better or worse has never happened before, on this scale, so I think that its unique.

 

It's still it's own story; it's just more focused on Thanos. It's a "happy ending" for the villain. Despite some conflict, he attains what he wants and the movie ends with him fully content.

On the other end, I get what Brody is saying, but it's literally titled Infinity War. It's a quick rush against an imminent threat. It's like criticizing Dunkirk because "people are just rooting for the Allies." They may be super heroes who have had their own films, but you get a lot of dramatic points with Tony/Peter, Star Lord/Gamora, Wanda/Vision and clear friendships among many heroes.

 

I said it was “largely not a success of artistry”. Not that it wasn’t art.

 

I mean, I know that the semantics of "art" have a lot of nuance. I have a fine arts degree from a rust belt community college, lol.

But, like, I don't think Nathan's "successful art" comment is talking about the technical craft. Contextually, it seems fairly clear from my perspective that he's discussing things like themes, character, etc. Especially since he specifically called out "film production."

You can appreciate the artistry of the pieces, & still question how the whole works as a work of art.

 

Not to take away from the current convo but he actually says “hey babe” when pepper shows up before she tells him he can rest

 

Are you sure? The foreign YouTube videos of his death don’t have subtitles at that moment other than when Pepper and Peter speak.

 

I haven't read it for a year, but the original post in this thread was fair: it's like complaining about not understanding a TV show when you try to jump in five or six seasons in.

I don't think that's the be-all-end-all definition of "good filmmaking," especially in the era of sprawling franchises and prestige TV. Those two things have changed the way we think about cinematic storytelling. There's still something to be said for films that work very well as standalones, but there is also something to be said for something that exists as part of a larger whole and pays off things from that whole in a way that it couldn't if it were trying harder to serve people outside of its core audience.

Fellowship does, but Two Towers and Return of the King a lot less so, for obvious reasons. It's hard to care about Gandalf coming back from the dead or all the characters reuniting if you never saw the events of the first movie. You could pick up what was going on, but I kind of doubt those films would be super satisfying if you just watched one of the latter two.

Again, kind of like complaining that the specifics of relationships between characters aren't re-stated at the beginning of every book in a series, or every episode/season of a TV show. I agree that I'd trade some of the spectacle in these movies for more character development and quiet moments between characters. But even if we had more of that, i'm not sure it would satisfy what Brody seems to want, which is for Infinity War (or this movie) to be more accessible to people who aren't familiar with the material.

Also, I forgot to quote it, but you said something a page or so back about the MCU not being unique and of there being plenty of examples of this kind of sprawling storytelling. I'm curious: what are your examples? I think by pretty much any metric this is unprecedented in length, number of films, and number of franchises. I'm not sure what else is even close.

 

Not 100% sure no

 

Yeah I'm pretty sure Tony says something to Pepper when she shows, could be wrong.

 

No, the original post was responding to the quote pulled in the tweet, which is just accurately stating how character interactions and motivations were largely handled in the film. Brody was hardly “complaining”, he was critiquing.

I posted again saying yes, in scale this is the largest accomplishment of its type in terms of budget and commercial success. But shared cinematic universes or cinematic stories spanning decades have been done before, many times, and with more complex stories with a lot more to say: Jacques Demy’s trilogy of Lola/Umbrellas of Cherbourg/Young Girls of Rochefort, Richard Linklater’s Before trilogy/Boyhood, the Universal monsterverse from the 1920’s-50’s, Kevin Smith’s View Askewniverse, the Seven Up documentary series are a few (admittedly the films of Kevin Smith aren’t the most complex of the bunch). None of this takes away from the accomplishment that the MCU is, or how much enjoyment someone can derive from the movies, it’s just the big budget blockbuster version.

 

I found a video with good audio and it sounds like he does grumble something but the subtitles are not there.

 

Anyway there have been a few strong voices critiquing Marvel's inherently flawed approach to storytelling, like Patrick Willems video series

and Film Crit Hulk has a good essay on it

‘Avengers: Infinity War’ and Marvel’s Endless Endgame

 

I re-read Brody's review and I stand by my interpretation; it seemed like he was playing devil's advocate for people who fall outside of the target audience, which...sure, valid, but you could also do that with any film. Also, the line about how it "presumes that people have thought about these movies afterward" is such smug movie critic bullshit. Of course people have thought about them afterward; that's why the MCU has continued to bust records rather than sputter out and die half a decade ago. People are hugely invested in these movies and these characters, have seen all the movies, have rewatched many of the movies more than once, etc.

 

Patrick Willems and FCH are both great.

 

I just realized that due to the events of Endgame, GOTG 3 will take place 9 years after the events of the first two films.

Whack.