Say Anything - Oliver Appropriate (January 25, 2019) Album • Page 29

I think the specific annoyance is how many stories or narratives or stereotype are that gay men are evil bad or predatory, as well as the “bury your gays” trope that has been talked about a lot. It does change when you consider that it’s someone else who isn’t straight writing about it rather than a straight person, but you do have to consider the larger effects and it also talks to possible internalized homophobia and self deprication that may not be entirely healthy. It is hard to discuss at length with only having the manifesto, I haven’t read it in a bit and can go further into it in the morning

 

I highly highly highly highly doubt it.

 

Max commented on the Jesse situation the week it happened. He definitely knows about it.

 

I've always thought of his retiring of "Wow, I Can Get Sexual Too" as a save-my-ass move, especially when the lyrics so closely mirrored the exact same situation that Jesse got busted for.

 

Okay I can explain that to you - I’m not trying to rip into you at all, just to explain so don’t worry!

The problem is that this is the argument that’s ALWAYS being made when a new piece of media containing those tropes appears. “Oh, but gay people can be evil.” “Oh, can’t we kill gay characters?” Yeah you can but if that’s the first thing you’re going for, there’s a problem. You have to consider the cultural impact of your story and the way you’re telling it. Just like it’d be insensitive right now to make a story in the pov of, idk, a neo-nazi, even if it’s “meant to explore an evil mind” or whatever, telling fellow queer people you’re going to “finally address your queerness” and serve them BOTH a bury your gays and self hating gay psychopath trope is extremely demoralising.

If your idea of being accepting towards your own queerness is a murderous, despicable gay man killing a good, self-accepting gay man, there’s a problem.

Because yes, while he did make a character who is good and positive rep, he kills him. And it’s a homophobic murder by a repressed ex-companion. This is called a punishment narrative : even “good” gay people can never be allowed to have a happy ending. (Also the fact he based the character off his self-identified gay friend who’s had issues with rejection from straight/unassuming men before is very fucked up to me but that’s between him and Karl)

So yeah, there’s space for stories about evil gays and dead gays to be told. In my own stories these characters exist. But when those are the only two characters in your story, you’re just making homophobic content, whether you intended it or not.

It’s content that straight people can look at and be entirely undisturbed by, because the gays don’t get to be happy and live, and so they don’t get to make their mark on the heteronormative society that killed them. If the gays are buried, they don’t have to worry about the status quo being changed by queer rebellion and queer visibility, which is why this kind of narrative is always there whenever a gay character appears in media. And yeah... as a storyteller and someone involved in comics, Max should be aware of that.

 

Also, doesn’t Max say fairly straightforwardly in the manifesto that, at the end of the album, after the main character kills himself by throwing himself into a river or something with the body of the gay guy he murdered tied to his own body, that he (main character) “ascends” and finds/makes peace with himself? That alone is supremely fucked up to me. There’s nothing anywhere about the murdered guy “ascending” and finding peace, so as Max has explained it so far, this murdered character is just a pawn to help his own character find peace in the afterlife. Cool, dude.

 

Yeah the fact he romanticises the hell out of something so horrifying, something that really happens to gay people (think about the Pulse mass shooting) is just like, a pang in the chest. Like, think a little, dude. There’s a community out there of people traumatised by the possibility of this happening to them, because homophobic murders by ex partners happen all the damn time. And you’re gonna glorify the murderer? God damn, it’s not 2002.

 

Just out of curiosity, has anyone written and sent Max a formal letter about how this could be interpreted as really harmful that way someone could try to open a dialogue between Max and the audience? If it's something that people feel so strongly about, I wouldn't sit on it.

 

I mean, when someone kindly asked him about the Brand New stuff, he ignored them, while he answered to everyone else. That's not an encouraging sign.

 

I mean, I feel like that's a little different than hitting him with a long open letter from the community about the concerns of addressing queer culture in such a toxic manner though.

 

I guess! But also, if he's not willing to address something as small and obvious as the brand new thing, it's definitely not encouraging that he'll respond even neutrally to someone saying something about something that is so personal to him. I also personally don't want to go against Karl. I know collaborating with Max meant a lot to him and it just makes me feel bad for him. It seems like a weird situation for him to be in, I don't know.

EDIT : here's what Karl had to say about it, in case you hadn't seen.

 

I'll add that there will probably be an instant gut reaction from a lot of people including Max and Karl that just because something is personal and cathartic means it can't be criticised. And I understand that reaction but also when you release a piece of media into the world it stops belonging to you, and you gotta think about the consequences that has.

 

I’m very skeptical of the album premise as well because at description it doesn’t sound like something that needs to enter the discourse surrounding LGBTQ+ violence, but I’m giving max benefit of the doubt until the album drops because he’s historically bad at describing his own music and Karl’s involvement / comments give me some hope

 

When you look at something like the twitlong that was just released and such and in general max not having a good track record with accepting criticism. I feel like it just end with me or anyone else being vagued about or painted as a online hater or something. but maybe people have different and more positive experiences and thats like valid too

 

I love Max but goddamn if he isn’t obtuse about a lot of shit

 

I just went on Max’s twitter. Good lord, at least when Conley goes on tweet storms he just talks about how great life is.

 

That Twitter defense is such horseshit and pissed me off even more. Using the "I'm not as bad as Johnny Criag or Jessie Lacey" defense is terrible as those are two dumpster fires of a human being. There's no excuse for ripping off fans. As someone who lives paycheck to paycheck and has to budget to support bands I love I find that disgusting. Using the emotional connection that fans have to your band in order to con them out of their hard earned money is super fucked up. Fans shouldn't have to pay for the music industry's shortcomings. And if you want them to, at least be honest about it. Honestly would love for Max to have to get a real job like everyone else in the world. Dude is so pretentious and needs to get a grip on reality.

 

Define a real job though. Cause i think being a touring musician/recording artist/ father are probably some of the most demanding jobs out there. That's not the issue here, so let's not pile on just to pile on.

 

The biggest crime is all the stuff he releases lately and most of the painful splits/song shops sound like shit. If you just sat down and hit record on any modern computer with quicktime and recorded it, it'd sound better. I'm in the minority, but I hate Daze, and I enjoyed the version he did sitting on his bed recording it. I'd love 17 Coked, if it was made any other way.

As for the content of the album being offensive, yea I suppose with all the violence against people in the LGBTQ community it could definitely be a harmful message. Thanks for those who answered my question. I know that's not Max's intention but to frame his gay-confused character as a murderer who gets "redemption", (I don't believe murderers of innocent people get redemption), and an innocent gay man is a victim, can be hella triggering.

I think social media/fandom/ego got to his head. Guy needs a 3 month sabbatical or something.

 

That was probably too much on my part and out of line. Just wish the dude would realize that his fans work hard to support him and he shouldn't take that for granted. When I see people abuse their platform like he has done it kind of makes me wish they had to work a job they hate like most people do. He needs to learn to show some humility instead of being so defensive.

 

Hahaha ain’t that the truth!

 

More Say Anything, is that what you want?

 

Sherri doing a whole album of SA songs actually sounds pretty awesome to me

 

i already posted this in another thread but im so excited fuck it. My gf got me a Max Bemis song feature from the kickstarter for one of my band's songs! Little nervous cause what everyone's saying quality-wise and he will only sing his own melody and lyrics... but my imagination is running wild with how neat it could be!

 

Fucking With Your Head

Hmm