General Politics Discussion [ARCHIVED] • Page 61

Money doesn't make sense in a socialist society. Money is a mediator of commodities, not all human interactions. Money wasn't even the primary mediator for economic relations until the age of capital. The relationships of the feudal era, for example, rested heavily on agriculture and thus, land and patronage was important; as a consequence, the economic, political and religious were all one apparatus with distinct features. That's changed in an uneven way. But, I'm sure they also thought that their way of life was eternal. If you actually look at archives and writings from that era, the people, too, were arguing against capitalism on the bases that it was sinful, didn't value labor, it would erode the bonds that kept society functioning, etc. I guess what Marx said was true. History repeats itself. First as tragedy, then as farce.

 

Socialism in one country isn't being advocated here. As far as I know, there are no Stalinists on the forum.

 

So are we talking about overthrowing the whole world government, stripping the middle class and above of what they own, and creating a new government that decides how to share the world resources? Oh ya.. that's gonna work.

 

Nope. I support expropriating the expropriators. Get it through your head: no one here is advocating a new government. The government, or state, is an extension of class relations, but ultimately is a part of a hierarchy. I'm advocating for the abolition of governments and their replacement with workers governments who democratically administer to the needs of society. Socialists don't want your goddamn iPod, your three car garage or anything related to your personal effects. As Marx said:

"Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriations."

 

Right, but to tell everyone they can no longer have those things, would mean you would need to overthrow what is currently in place. Right? I am so lost, don't you usually need a violent revolution to pull this off? Tell the people with the most powerful military of all time they no longer have their stuff.. I get you like this theory, but it is dead and can't be revived without all out war.

 

You keep focusing on things. I explained it outright. You cannot have a system where people accumulate at the expense of others. The current state of the world is precisely because workers have been losing the class struggle. They have no qualms about the violence they use upon us. I've none myself. The funny thing about the military is, in Russia for example, they sided with the revolutionaries, not the ruling class. This is likely because of their class backgrounds. But, I digress. What it comes down to is, you're fine with people being killed and murdered, or having their labor or homes expropriated, so long as it is in the service of capitalism. Once again, you've proved nothing. You've said a lot of words which don't amount to anything. Even your questions don't make sense.

 

No I get it, kill everyone with money and start from scratch. I'll see you on the battlefield sir.

 

You're an idiot.

 

ohhh so that wasn't what you were saying... got itttt. Cuz you don't like people having things, they should all agree to give them up without a fight

 

You're speaking in memes. I addressed this: show some evidence that there's ever been a socialist society allowed to exist without facing the interference and opposition from major world powers from the outset. You are ignoring the fact that the strongmen who have existed within the countries you've mentioned existed because of outside interference from the West.

Capitalism always ends up being a huge slave trade. Show me proof of a time it didn't.

 

Personal property is not private property. No one will kill you for your Wonder Years t-shirts or try to stop you from getting them. What you're upset about is that you like getting them for cheap because they're made through what is essentially slave labor.

 

You're an idiot.

 

"You disagree with my viewpoint, so you're stupid"

 

This again comes back to what Dom said. You need every country to become socialist and share their resources, or there will always be another country that may attack you. The reason this doesn't happen much now is the US is so powerful no one tries to go to huge wars. A socialist country can't exist as the only one. So like Dom said, you need to forcefully take everything people own, and redistribute it throughout the world. I don't like that.. I guess people on this site do.

 

no hes stupid because he is apparently literally incapable of comprehending what he is trying to discuss.

 

But it seems like you're ok with forcefully taking things from people and keeping it within the hands of those who took it. Cause that's capitalism lol.

 

Nah in socialism you get government approved t shirts.

 

nah this guy keeps falling back on fallacious arguments.

 

So everything you own you took from someone else?

 

He doesn't have a viewpoint, he's refusing to listen and just regurgitating nonsense.

 

Nope. He is beyond his intellectual capacities in this discussion.

 

I paid the person who exploited someone else for it, ya.

 

Dude, no one wants your shitty things. The people living in other parts of the world working for next to nothing, dying in our wars, and building our iPhones, I assume, don't want your shitty possessions. You are arguing about socialism at the level I would expect from a 12 year old who only ever heard about it from their grandfather. They just want fair pay and fair opportunity for their labor. The fact that you seem willing to overlook their suffering because "socialism is about taking things from me!" and "capitalism has made people's lives great!" and "well, people always have suffered and you can't help everyone so lol" demonstrates that, again, you aren't willing to engage with substance but would rather spout off memes. You're approach is basically "well, i live in america and things are cool here so why should anything change." Fine. Have it. But don't get in a discussion acting as if you're interested in hearing another perspective on shit.

 

Everyone, please don't resort to condescending and sarcastic remarks, or personal insults. We're fully capable of debating without it becoming too hostile. It's just unnecessary. Thanks.

 

Holy shit I have a viewpoint. People can freely start a business with their ideas and if people are willing to pay for it then they can make money. As you grow you can hire people to work for you, and I agree we need to find what the fair wage is for them so they don't live in poverty. Those people can take that money, buy things and maybe someday start their own business. You have the freedom to get more than what you need to survive.

k?