Camp Cope - How to Socialise & Make Friends (March 2, 2018) Album • Page 16

Let me answer one and three together, because maybe it will finally click. I brought up my friend because she was a woman, who could appreciate the message behind the music but not get into it from a technical level. A male friend of mine can't get into them either because he doesn't like that simple punk style, so I chose my female friend specifically. But also, she has been trained in a genre that is heavily, heavily dominated by men. So of course there are exceptions, but referring to straight white males judging music a certain way is definitely based in reality, especially for the kind of bands and music scene Camp Cope is lumped in with. This goes back to my older post about gatekeepers trying to change their sound, to fit into a certain mold that they expect all bands to sound like, they've incorporated this into the story telling of this album in a lot of great ways.

The jazz metaphor is sound, you're still not seeing that this record was never what you thought it should be. You're still judging this record on a different scale for what they were going for.

The problem here, with this derailed thread, is that you got defensive and escalated everything. As I've posted before, you could've come in, said you gave it a shot but just can't get into their style, and that would have been it. Now we've devolved into this whole larger conversation about how generally white men, in genres dominated by white men, try to judge bands on a certain set of guidelines that definitely do not apply to Camp Cope and the record they went out to make. That ties in with all the sexism, gatekeeping, and reviews that miss the point of their record to offer a critique on unfounded aspects not being a part of their sound.

 

The apology, while I’m not sure that you know what you’re apologizing for, is appreciated. You used the word “average” 4 times in that original post. You can see why someone who has connected very personally with the album might take that as an attack on something they love.

Edit: What I mean is that yes, it’s ok to be negative, but it’s important to do it in a way that doesn’t dismiss anyone who does like the album. And it’s especially important with an album that is so personal to so many people.

 

I didn’t read the entire discussion but I will say that I did see your original post at the time and saw nothing wrong with it. The answer probably should have been “maybe it’s just not for you” and that could have been the end of it.

 

Yes.

 

I only got defensive about being called a fool. Should I not? I get what you are saying with the whole “they should sound a certain way”. I understand that and I get the sound they were going for. I didn’t think they executed it on some super special awesome level. I thought it was average. I didn’t think the word average would offend anyone. I also wasn’t trying to turn them into some pop band. I came in asking questions along with my opinion. I expected more of a response of what they liked about the vocals, what they liked about the lyrics, what they liked about the instrumentals and how it all blended together. That’s what I was looking for. I wanted to get what others were hearing bc I’ve had troubles connecting with a lot of new music lately which may be because as I get older it’s harder and harder to relate to some of the new stuff dropping.

Instead I got as a response, you’re a fool it’s people like you that’s why this music is important and a pasted tweet about how I shouldn’t be reviewing the music at all essentially silencing my voice out all together. Not sure how I’m supposed to react to that unless you’d have preferred I just shut up and go away. Well, that’s exactly what most probably wanted

I didn’t think average was an offensive word and really if people can’t handle hearing that someone else thinks a band they love sounds average without feeling offended that’s on them. Toughen up. The world isn’t all sunshine and roses and people won’t all agree with your likes and dislikes. I never came in here trying to act like my word was Gospel. I asked questions to understand. None of my friends like my music, they call it whiny loser rock. They mostly listen to rap and popular stuff. I don’t cry about it. My wife listens to modern pop country and also doesn’t get how I can like any band that ever screams. I don’t get upset. I just explain why I like it and she’s like alright.

That said I do really apologize even though it doesn’t sound like it. I’m a non-confrontational person by default and I hate thinking that I’m offending people. I’m just thinking maybe people don’t get me here. Idk it is what it is.

Haha I must say it feels good to not have EVERY single person completely talking down on me like I’m some terrorist troll sent down to this forum from the the ancient land of Cismale, where only white things with penis’s rule and all else must be vanquished.

I really came in here to learn something and talk music with like minded individuals. This is the first time I’ve ever had an issue here. It must be a sign of the tension of the times.

 

Finally listened to this. "The Face of God" WOW.

 

I didn’t think fool was an offensive word and really if people can’t handle hearing that someone else thinks their criticism sounds foolish without feeling offended that’s on them. Toughen up. The world isn’t all sunshine and roses and people won’t all agree with your likes and dislikes.

 

"average" is such a poor choice when so much about this album is built out of the fact that men continually call them "average" "not good enough" "not headline caliber" etc etc. the context behind that speaks to exactly what this album is about

 

Being so mad about being called a fool reminds me of Ming from CBB

 

A poor attempt at throwing my words back in my face. I wasn’t told that I was being foolish. I was specifically told that I was a fool which is an attack on my character. This is not the same as someone not liking the same band I like.

It was also inferred that I was part of the problem in reference to the overall conversation of men disrespecting and unfairly treating women. That I really didn’t like at all.

 

the "not for you" response makes sense but feels super reactionary to me in a bad way? i mean i'm... theoretically one of the people this record is for, and i think it's... just all right. basically the first record all over again with different chords. which is, again, fine. i guess it's cool to be writing a record with a specific audience in mind though it feels odd to me, unless the idea was "i'm writing this for me and therefore i'm also writing it for people like me." which is also cool, but people like you vibing with your art feels like an arbitrary byproduct of making it, not the criteria for writing a review of it.

 

If this is going to be your argument then you also need to be ok when the artist themself tells you to shut up and listen. Stop being so defensive. Toughen up.

 

i also don't really know what reviews she's talking about; the spin writeup someone complained about in this thread was written by a woman

 

This is a fair criticism. When I first posted I admitted I needed to go back and read the lyrics. Perhaps if I had and understood what this band and album symbolized before posting I’d have chosen to keep my opinion to myself but I also must say that nothing about my thinking them average musically speaking has the slightest thing to do with them being women.

Also to be fair I came in asking questions. I didn’t pop in like some know it all man to mansplain how this band is average. I came in to inquire about what made this band special.

That said I don’t claim at all to be the expert in good tact. If u are accusing me of lacking tact since I didn’t know what this band was about. Fair enough.

 

I thought it was pretty sick. Maybe too easy, but it was right there. And fool is such a nothing insult that this convo has become very silly.

And that's not the problem you're a part of. You're not unfairly treating women, but you're holding this band to a certain standard that they are not attempting to meet. There is a conversation about how men hold female bands to certain criteria that they expect them to meet, and act negatively to bands that reject those criteria to create their own sound, that doesn't fit into the guidelines of what they think bands should be from their heavily, heavily male dominated experience of this kind of music.

 

The artist didn’t tell me to shut up and listen. The artist told me that since I’m a man it’s not for me and as such I should shut up and not voice my opinion on her music.

I am not offended by the artist but I do disagree strongly with her decision to do that. She sounds like an immature hypocrite. I get it. She’s going for angry and powerful but you can be angry and powerful while at the same time still doing things the right way.

Two wrongs have never and will never make a right.

 

Her statement is much less powerful than it is vulnerable. You're still seeing it as an attack, its not.

 

You are assuming again that I’m holding them to some undefined standard that you haven’t identified. I’m not saying they need to conform to expectations or genre or song writing norms. I’m just saying I didn’t think it was very good. You can disagree and that’s fine. You keep going back to this “oh you are this Cis White Male doing Cis White Male things in how you are wanting them to be” and I say, nope. I just don’t think it’s very good which should be acceptable and fine.

Julien Baker doesn’t conform to norms and try and be pop or anything. I think she’s brilliant and amazingly talented. That’s my opinion and no I’m not trying to say this band needs to sound like Julien Baker lol. This is a flawed and circular argument you are making to invalidate my opinion for
Some reason rather than just disagreeing based upon the assumed grounds that I want them to be whatever you think I want them to be because of my gender and orientation.

 

Imagine being told for years that you aren't good, you can't make music like you want to, you have to sound a certain way, you need more members, you need to change your style, you can't sell out these shows, no one will like you, no one cares about your emotions, your songs, your way of doing things

Then pushing through all of that negativity, developing an audience, finding the people that value your art, your message, your sound, everything, and reaching a level of success that obliterates what those people told you you were capable of, and releasing a very emotional, sincere, honest record that connected with a lot of people.

And then still being told by people who don't get what you're trying to do at all that you need to change and its still not good enough because you don't meet the ideal of what they told you to be. What they want you to be. Despite finding success and people who understand, being kicked down again. Yeah I'd want that to stop too.

 

Good god, what the hell happened in here

 

YOU identified it, in your earlier post where you list what you judge EVERY record by, I don't want to dig and I'm about to leave but its there. Its not about going pop, I've never said anything like that, that's all coming from you. If you just said it wasn't for you you'd be fine but you keep doubling down and being defensive, you're dragging this out way longer than it should've been. It has been uncovering more of the underlying issues with how bands like this are treated for playing this kind of music, so that's valuable at least.

I've been bored by every Julien Baker song I've heard, I don't get the hype there at all. Its all pretty standard acoustic guitar songs. Also tho, I'm not in that thread talking about what she could've done to get me to care, or how average her lyrics are, or how much I personally don't like her style, cause that'd be like way foolish. Sometimes you don't like things and that's fine.

 

at least we found out this guy's position on nazis am i right

 

Now you are assuming I don’t get what they are trying to do at this point. I get it. I just don’t think it’s very good. No big deal.

Why must you work to invalidate my opinion, call me a fool, act like I’m part of the problem of males not treating women fairly and make all sorts of excuses for this behavior?

I get it, I get it sucks how they are treated. I get the message. I still just don’t think the music is good. It’s not that big a deal. I’m not saying you are wrong if you love the music either. That’s the beautiful thing about music. It’s all subjective. To each his or her own.

 

Watch this bands audiotree and then tell me they arnt a good talented band at what they do... like Jesus.. I get the style isn’t for everyone but the style they play they pull off very well.

dare to share this so called acoustic video where there are mistakes?

Anyway, This is punk music... it’s not about playing every note 100 percent perfectly it’s about the message.

 

Bruh Julien Baker is dope as hell