The Christian Music Thread Genre • Page 24

I'd start with Counting Stars. It's right on the cusp of his earlier and later work and it's got some of his best stuff.

The Far Country and Light for the Lost Boy are my personal favorites of his though.

 

Yeah I was gonna say just asked @Lucas27 haha. He's the knowledgeable one.

I only truly know The Burning Edge of Dawn, which is his most recent LP. I love it and seems to be a little shorter than his other work.

 

Yes. It seems every five pages or so of this thread I have to remind people he's the greatest. Lol.

Burning Edge is fantastic as well. I think he's one of those artists who's entire discography is great, but he really does get better and better.

 

Listening to this new Resurrection Letters: Prologue EP... the lyrics sound ok but I find his voice a bit boring. I know you are all going to shoot me. I don't know - I like singer songwriter styles like this but I can be picky. I have to be able to emotionally engage with the voice and the lyrics and I've never been able to get stuck in with him unfortunately.

Sorry everyone.

 

Yeah the Prologue EP is alright, but have you heard any of The Burning Edge? The instrumentation and melodies there are a lot more engaging, but then again maybe @Lucas27 can steer you towards the light haha.

 

Andrew Peterson has a very unassuming style. When I first heard his stuff it reminded me of an older band Caedmon's Call, except less engaging. It wasn't until I sat with it for awhile that it hit me on a deeper level. I can always find my story in the stories he tells, and then he brings it back to the Kingdom and it just gives me so much joy. It's like the musical equivalent of a couple close pastor friends of mine who give me encouragment at all the right moments.

I always geek out about Andrew Peterson to people and I think they think I'm weird when they first listen cause it's so unexciting compared to majority of what I listen to (Anberlin, Thrice, mewithoutYou, etc.).

So all this to say, yes I think he's amazing. But no, I am not surprised whenever someone is underwhelmed by his music.

 

Also, my final AP rant ever here, I don't think he's amazing just cause he's resonated with me. I really think he's objectively the best artist in Christian music just like Rich Mullins was during his time. But both require a different mindset. It's ordinary and extraordinary all at once, so it doesn't hit immediately but there's so many layers to explore, especially lyrically.

Now I'm done. As you were.

 

Triple post! Plus, self-promotion!

I'm putting out my first song within the next week, hopefully. I'll post it here if everyone's down. :)

 

When I was working in Christian Radio, AP was one of my favorite people to interview/talk with. Very down to Earth and nice guy. His children books are also a lot of fun if you enjoy a quick fiction read.

 

Hey Chase, I've listened to episode 3 and episode 5 - you've done a good job overall. It probably has fallen a bit too much into CCM for me - for example, I've never heard a Steve Curtis Chapman or Amy Grant song (perhaps to my shame but different generation and I live in the UK). I actually don't think I've heard many DC Talk songs either... However, I appreciated what you were trying to do. The discussion looking back on the top 100 Christian albums, although I hadn't heard of most, was still interesting. Things have changed so much since 2001. I was only just getting into Christian music back then with bands like Relient K.

Probably the bit that caught my attention most was the debate about Dustin Kensrue and changing beliefs. Not sure I would agree with everything said - at times the language used made it feel like if you don't hold onto 'conservative' Christian beliefs you aren't really a Christian or at the very least don't believe the 'right' thing! I found it fascinating that you were expressing disappointment with the direction that people like him and Audrey Assad have taken. Personally I'm probably sit more with their beliefs now than the 'conservative' theologies - particularly because I've lived outside of the American bubble so feel more like an observer than a participator. To be honest, I don't really use 'conservative' or 'liberal' as adjectives when describing Christians over here! However, the conversation is worth having even if I don't land in the same place as you guys - so many Christians in that area of the music scene are moving more in that direction.

I'll probably check out the podcast here and there and was glad to give it a go!

One thing I would feedback would be to add some 'show notes' to your iTunes descriptions. At the moment it just has the title which is relatively vague. I know I'm far less likely to dip back in if I don't know that you're talking about two or three bands I'm interested in. I know it's conversational so you can't list 20 topics that you discuss but noting a few of the prominent discussions would be helpful for someone like me in getting me to listen!

Looking forward to hearing Aaron Sprinkle soon.

 

Thanks so much for listening and providing all the helpful feedback!

We're still coordinating a recording date with Sprinkle, but we're dropping an episode next week discussing Norma Jean's Wrongdoers, if that interests you

I've been wanting to get the iTunes show notes thing figured out, especially like how Jason has the interactive show notes for the Overcast app. I don't do the web/RSS side of things, but I'll try to get it figured out.

As for the liberal/conservative/who's-right thing, I have problems with those adjectives, too, even though I can be classified as a "conservative" in many ways. However, I hate the evangelical+Republican marriage we tend to have, and quite frankly, my theological beliefs are more in line with things that were popular in 1600's Europe than any popular American beliefs today. That being said, it's worth pointing out that what I believe, I seriously consider to be true. So if someone disagrees with me (specifically on a Christian issue), then I want them to show me in Scripture that I'm incorrect or that their position is as valid as my position; otherwise, I'm going to think that they are wrong, by simple matter of conviction. So yeah, it troubles me that Kensrue is moving in a direction that I see to be erroneous and spiritually dangerous. I've looked into the position and have thoughtful reasons for disagreeing with it. Nevertheless, I don't consider him any less of a Christian -- the only thing that would make me say someone is no longer a Christian is if they blatantly deny Christ as Lord or Savior. The big caveat to all of this is that, in no way do I think people who disagree can't be friends or can't serve together or can't worship together. There's a huge spectrum of different views in my own church, and I love everyone there. In fact, I love being surrounded by and challenged by people I don't always agree with. So if nothing else, your feedback is a healthy reminder for me to speak with more grace when talking about people/positions I disagree with

 

hahah I think Prologue blows Burning Edge out of the water! hhah. But I am more negative towards Burning Edge than most people tend to be.

I listened to Resurrection Letters Vol 1 last night, though, and it's absolutely incredible. Had me weeping. It probably won't top Light for the Lost Boy as my favorite AP album, but it's surprisingly close.

 

Bro, like, I know this isn't good. But you know me well enough to know I'm pre-ordering this album a thousand times and would never share it if I was accidentally sent an early copy. I'm not implying you do anything about that. Certainly not. That's illegal. You could lose your job. I'm just saying if there's one thing that would nourish my noshes, it's being accidentally sent an early copy of an artist I love in a completely accidental manner.

 

Come to Nashville and hang out with me while I listen ;) hahaha

 

@awakeohsleeper Let me first clarify, I grew up in reformed Baptist circles and not much has changed surrounding-wise. In fact, I just recently returned to the church I grew up in (my cousin is the pastor and I’ve become very close friends with the associate pastor who I’m doing a counseling internship with). The tendency in these circles is definitely toward the more ‘conservative’ side.

That said, I’ve personally rejected being ‘conservative’ entirely. I tell people I’m conservative because I believe the Bible is inerrant and unchanging, but I’m progressive because I believe the Church is always changing as it’s conforming into the image of Christ. The church I just left (which I still love) went through hell because the old guard there has been accusing the newer pastor of power-grabbing because he’s moving the church out of strict traditions and fundamentalism into a more loving, diverse, Christ-like community. It was white-washed and isolated, but now it’s becoming more indicative of the community around us (and suburban Atlanta is as diverse as it gets).

The church I’m in right now has progressed even further from conservativism. In fact, even though it’d still be considered ‘conservative’ by modern standards, those I’m closest to would reject conservatism same as me. So much damage has been done in name of the conservative church (with a lowercase “c”) and it really is no wonder people swing to the opposite spectrum.

But I have a lot of issues with the opposite spectrum of Christian culture too. So much of modern Christian theology is reacting to the failures of the conservative church and not what Scripture actually says. For instance, I love Julien Baker and could listen to that girl talk for hours whether I agree with her or not, but her theology is shaped by both how she views herself and the condemnation coming from the conservative church. Dustin Kensrue has let his views be led by his bad experiences at Mars Hill and the damaging culture Mark Driscoll established there. I recently saw a Twitter conversation with Audrey Assad where she talked about how shame never has any place within Christianity and how conservative Christian circles use shame to oppress (this is for free, but the Bible differentiates between two kinds of shame in 2 Cor. 2:10—“godly sorrow that leads to repentance” and “worldly sorrow that leads to death”—the latter isn’t useful but the former certainly is even in a universal sense).

All this to say, my biggest pet peeve with artists like Dustin Kensrue and Audrey Assad is that there’s a middle ground between progressivism and conservatism that’s completely overlooked. Yes, I’m sure most progressives would accuse us of being too condemning, and most conservatives would accuse us of being too accepting, I just wish we were acknowledged.

I think my views on life would be best summed up with a G.K. Chesterton quote: "The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected." I think that applies to the Church as much as it applies to politics. And that was written in the 1920s!

Anyway, you didn’t ask for all of that. No one asks for my long posts, my mom's been in the hospital and I just have nothing better to do with my time lately. Hahaha. Sorry if it seems self-indulgent. I just wanted to give some clarity about how Christian culture works here in America, and also maybe help you understand why Chase is troubled by certain things. I think he and I are pretty much in the same boat.

 

BadChristian is doing a documentary on the Christian music industry. Should be interesting. They’ve shot some footage and are doing a kickstarter for the rest.

What Would Jesus Sell? - A BadChristian Documentary

 

Funny you mentioned that. I recently listened to a podcast with a psychologist that studied the personality characteristics and how they relate to political affiliation. He mentioned that in early human history, the “conservatives” were hesitant to welcome outsiders, fearing that they carried diseases that could wipe out the group. The “conservative” trait helped keep the group safe. The “progressives” were more eager to welcome outsiders, which we now know from science is good for the sake of genetic diversity. I never thought of it from the perspective before. It really helped me recognize that both sides do serve a purpose for the larger society. Even if I side with one, I can see the utility in the other.

Edit - not sure why my text is one giant link...

 

That is fascinating. What podcast was it?

 

Not a huge BC fan, but I'm pretty psyched for this. The title alone kind of exposes the creepiness I feel when I see "Christian" and "industry" together. I wonder what angle the boys are going to take.

 

I know that the psychologist was Jordan Peterson. I can’t pinpoint which podcast, as he’s been on so many in the last year. I’ll keep looking and post it if I find it. The personality trait most often seen in conservative people is conscientiousness, while the most often seen in progressives is openness. He also pointed out that these traits are important in the business world too, as progressives are better at starting new businesses, while conservatives are better at running those businesses after the start up phase. Interesting stuff.

 

Progressives have to lay the groundwork for conservatives to have a set structure to abide by. Cool example of how both work in society.

 

In what direction is Kensrue moving in?

Also I liked what you said about your beliefs being more in lined with 1600's Europe. The pastor from the organization I was involved with back in college always told us to read ODP (old dead people) books since we know how they finished their walk with Christ. Not saying to deny those who write today, but stressing the importance to, as Ravi Zacharias puts it, "Before we go around tearing down fences, we need to understand why that fence was put there in the first place". I'm paraphrasing, but there really is so much to learn from those who have walked the faith before us.

Great post and I basically fall within the same category. I read the rest of the Chesterton quote too, good stuff.

 

hahah yeah I heard something similar once, that for every book we read from a living author, we should read five books from dead authors. I came to a similar conclusion after being a big fan of Rob Bell and Mark Driscoll. I got tired of seeing idolized celebrities fall into disgrace. It's so much safer to look at the lives of men and women who proved their faithfulness to Christ to the end of their lives. Turning those heroes of church history into idols is still a temptation, but it hasn't been nearly as problematic for me or my own affections.

 

Oh I forgot to answer the Kensrue question. I'll come back.

 

Loving this discussion - this is long... sorry! Just want to say I love and respect you all and everything I've written below is from the perspective of trying to have meaningful discussion and to listen and learn.

I’ll definitely be checking out the Norma Jean episode. It’s not my favourite NJ album but they are a band I enjoy, particular O’ God (unpopular opinion!) and Redeemer.

I love that you say that your beliefs more align with the 1600s than today. You are clearly well read and have researched your ideas and your commitment to scripture is admirable and to be respected. More importantly, in my opinion, is that you are clearly humble about it. I love that you go to a church where there are different perspectives, opinions and views and that you can get along and learn to follow Christ together. That’s what it’s about at the end of the day. Love God, love each other.

For me, I started in the 1600s for my History degree, but I’ve recently ended up going further back to form most of my theological perspectives. I’m still working it all out – it’s a lifetime journey after all! Most recently it’s the writings of St Francis of Assisi, Brother Lawrence, the desert fathers and Dame Julian of Norwich which have found most resonance in my heart. I grew up with an Anglican vicar (pastor) as a dad so although ‘evangelical’ (although UK evangelical is definitely different to US evangelical) but on the fairly charismatic end. I’ve been in an ecumenical multi-denominational church for the last 9 years since leaving home… it actually was a House Church in the 80s and is now part of three denominations – they call it an Anglican/Baptist/House Church! It’s been really cool for the church leadership to be accountable to three different streams of thought.

So it’s been an interesting journey for me. Most recently (over the last two or three years) I’ve been considering why I believe what I believe and what does the Bible really say about things. I’ve found it to be hard in places but an overall healthy experience. One of the things that I have loved is going back further, throwing off our ‘Western 21st Century culture’ and trying to return to much older perspectives. As part of this I have been trying to read more about the original texts, the context of the writings and the original words. It’s been enlightening and I've learnt so much.

At the centre of this journey I would say I have had an increase love for Christ and all that he achieved on the cross. God has become bigger – more inexplicable, more glorious, more wonderful than I have ever could imagine.

There are obviously overlaps with the spiritual journeys of people like Kensrue. Like you, I try to wrestle with what people say. I’m sceptical of anyone who says “I agree 100% with everything that person X says”. That’s just naïve – we have no way of fully knowing the thought processes, opinions and feelings of an individual. I try and learn as much as possible in a humble way, being open to change, but standing firm on the truth of God’s grace & love.

Which things do you find most spiritually dangerous? I know this is a music thread but I think we can justify the discussion because we’re talking about a musician and a lyricist!

Bringing it back to music in a greater dimension, here’s a thought (maybe a discussion for the podcast!): our culture clearly idolises celebrities and we have not managed to get away from that in the Christian world. Whether it’s Kensrue or Andrew Peterson or another musician, we’ve all got people/bands/artists that we have loved and respected and most importantly, listened to. However, we seem to be more open to criticising some Christians than others. For example, we’re happy to listen to a lot of bands like Norma Jean even though they’ve never really had the same beliefs as us but haven’t been vocal about it (by ‘us’ I’m trying to generalise a more traditional perspective as I know we’ve all got different beliefs). But when someone like Kensrue who has released more ‘worship focussed’ albums and worked for a church, begin to question or change their beliefs we tend to be more critical.

I just think that it’s interesting how we hold people to different stands. And people we don’t know at that! I include myself in this. I’m quick to judge a tweet or an answer to an interview question etc, without taking time to know or understand the person. We live in that kind of society. How can we begin to shine in a way that is contrary to that?

I don’t know the answer.

Firstly, I always want your long posts. I’m sad to hear about your mom (or mum to us Brits!) – it’s always hard when parents, and particularly mums, are suffering. I hope she recovers and feels better soon.

I really respect where you’re coming from and love your overall point. The final quote from GK Chesterton is a good one – although I don’t come across those words as much in the UK, there are those broad camps and I know what you’re (or he is) getting at.

Sounds like you’ve been on an interesting journey.

On conservative Christianity, the intriguing thing that leaps out to me about the American church is where did people get inerrant from? In the UK, even my extremely ‘conservative’ friends would never claim the Bible is ‘inerrant’. I have a pretty high view of Scripture but I’ve never come across this idea of the Bible being ‘without error’ until I started talking to Americans and reading writings from people based in the US. I actually usually joke with people when people use the word ‘inerrant’: “oh, I didn’t know you spoke Ancient Greek and Hebrew!” My point is this – the more I’ve dived into word studies (and I’m not even talking about the controversial stuff like women in leadership or sexuality, I’m talking about basic words) the more I realise that translators have a flipping hard task to put expressive ancient languages into modern English.

I don’t think you lose anything of the beauty, importance and authority of the Bible by dropping the ‘without errors’ claim.

The unchanging claim is different and I think many will hold that position – but I guess that word means different things to different people. Do we mean it’s unchanging from the moment it was written or do we mean that it’s unchanging from the oldest copies we have or do we mean the Council of Nicea or the centuries it took to establish the canon or unchanging since the Reformation chopped and changed what was in or out…?

I’m at a historian at heart so I’m just trying to provoke thought about the words we use to describe things.

I don’t mind people holding on to these beliefs but from a slightly different cultural perspective (British Christianity vs. American Christianity), it’s very interesting!

I would say that it is unchanging from the perspective that it has eternally revealed the Christ and eternally revealed the love of God for humanity but someone else’s use of ‘unchanging’ may mean to them that it hasn’t been altered in any form since the moment it was written.

But anyway, that thought experiment wasn’t at the heart of what you were saying – you were explaining how diverse American Christian culture is and I really hear you and respect that and your journey. It’s very interesting to hear your perspective and hear you talk more about some of your personal beliefs. I love it and what you are saying is important! “I have these traditionally conservative beliefs but I also have these progressive beliefs”. You are SO right! Even though I’ve just spent several paragraphs meandering about inerrancy, I still respect your right to have that opinion and perspective of scripture. I’ve still taken my time to think about it, to consider it, to see what the Bible itself seems to say about it.

So I absolutely love those general points! Why is there no middle ground between the two camps in American Christian culture (or, #canofworms, American politics in general!)?! My observation of both the UK and the US is that we’ve forgotten how to listen, how to understand, how to allow for nuance, how to embrace tradition but move forward. It sounds like your last church was trying to do this – move forward and love people better – but it just shows how stuck in the ways we as humans can get. Both my dad and my father-in-law are vicars (pastors in the Anglican church) and they are always coming against opposition for the smallest, inconsequential things. It’s quite saddening.

Now, I have no idea if this ‘no middle ground’ thing applies to Kensrue or Assad as I don’t follow their work that heavily. I can see why people would get frustrated.

Your observation that a lot of these big shifts come through pain/hurt etc (like the end of Mars Hill) is true. For me, my changes in belief came as I came to term with my mum having MS, my Grandpa passing away (I realised I was going to die) and my mental health problems. I’ve been heavily involved in charismatic culture and for me it’s been a gradual questioning, wrestling with scripture, trying to hear God and make sense of life. What I have noticed is that for some people (perhaps Kensrue from what I know), it’s a giant swing and it’s often loud and vocal and for some people that seems offensive or disrespectful. As hard as it is, I think we need to learn to allow grace for that, particularly when it comes from hurt and a place of trying to love people better. Can we listen to them even when they’re being loud or seemingly obnoxious? Can we practice humility? Can we learn together? I think this is what you said really! These are the questions you’re asking. It’s a tough time at the moment to have these conversations, to sit in the dust and find the middle ground. To look for the beauty in all our expressions of faith.

Bringing it back to music… what I find interesting is how these shifts will play out in their music and lyrics. For me, it’s actually been the albums (such as As Cities Burn’s ‘Come Now Sleep’ or mewithoutYou’s ‘Catch For Us The Foxes’ or Hands’ ‘Give Me Rest’) that have expressed doubts, fears and uncertainty that have meant the most to me. Honest music that questions things is the music that I will always connect with the most.

I try to look at faith-based musicians as people bringing their art to the table, like the paintings of old. I look at it (or listen to it these days), I wrestle with it, I try to find meaning in it, I try to find the Divine and see the glimpses of the Christ, I try to allow it to move me. If it does, it does. If my meaning is different to the attended meaning, that’s ok. If I don’t agree or find myself in a different place to the artist, that’s ok. I try to give it a chance – if it’s not for me, it’s not for me… but there will be some beauty there that others may appreciate or be able to relate to. That’s ok too.

Can’t speak much on the Kensrue stuff as I don’t follow his work in that much depth.

However, just a few thoughts on your other points! I like the intentions behind what the pastor said but one caveat: even a writing from an ODP is a snapshot of what they believed in that moment. So yes, loads of amazing stuff to learn from those who have walked before us but unless it was written on their death bed (or last few years), it doesn’t necessarily give us a full understanding of their walk or how they finished their walk. As @Chase Tremaine said, we can still turn them into idols. My best example is of Martin Luther – when I was studying his life and writing a project on him I was extremely disappointed to discover that most historians claim that he had become a “cantankerous old man” (genuine quote) by the end of his life. Stubborn, critical and set in his ways – not exactly as Christlike as I’d always imagined!

But yes, the general point of learning from people who have gone before us is an important one. As I said earlier, I’ve tried to go back further than the 1600s – it gives a real depth to where we’ve come from. There’s a real richness in it. For example, reading Julian of Norwich last year was such a rewarding experience for me.

A recent desire is to read old Jewish writings to help me better understand the culture that bits of the Bible were written in. That’s a new addition to my objective list for the coming year…