Brand New - Science Fiction (August 17, 2017) [ARCHIVED] Album • Page 1716

So would you like the people people denouncing Brand New to stop listening to all bands from the 60’s and 70’s that haven’t received any allegations?

 

What you refer to as "whataboutism" is not a distraction from the issue, its the root of the issue. If you think this "scene" is the only toxic environment for young fans of music, you are deluded.

Shut what down? The entire entertainment industry? It's too late. You're not wrong, but neither am I sure what you're suggesting pragmatically.

What I'd like isn't really relevant. What would be relevant to the scenario at hand would be an examination of the cause and not the symptoms. Jesse Lacey's actions, like the gross actions of many adored, famous people, are a symptom of something deeper, and perhaps not just deeper within him, but deeper within an industry, nay a society, that has longsince been built on abuse of power.



Bottom line, y'all are free to do what you want. I just don't see the practicality to endlessly debating whether to listen to a band, or not listen, or boycott, or not boycott, or shame people for doing so, or shame others for not doing so. These are all bandaid solutions to a bigger problem that involves all of us.

 

Everything you're saying could be completely, totally accurate, and still doesn't account for this:

What Jesse did, he did to children.

That means we as a society HAVE ALREADY ADDRESSED WHAT YOU'RE WANTING ADDRESSED. Jesse's actions are illegal; they are fundamentally different than other 'abuses of power,' because collectively, as a society, we have said '15 year olds are children without the capacity to consent.'

You wanna talk about power structures within the music industry? Sure. Have at it. That is decidedly NOT what the issue with Brand New is, though. The issue with Brand New is that children were systematically preyed on by Jesse Lacey. The man is guilty of multiple crimes here, none of which are remotely gray area issues. And no, that doesn't 'involve us all.' We all fuck up; we all live in a society that is patriarchal and reveres heroes and gives celebrities a pass for gross behavior. But we don't all abuse children. That's a field far further than what you're talking about.

How this continually gets lost in these conversations is beyond me.

 

if you think power structures in the industry dont contribute to what jesse did, you are kidding yourself

 

^^ you're spot on AshlandATeam, but I'm not implying that any of this is a grey issue. I'm implying that there have been Jesse Lacey's all throughout entertainment history.

 

I'm confused. I don't see how a discussion about Jesse Lacey's allegations or misogyny in this specific music scene means we don't understand that there is sexism in spaces outside music.

 

If Jesse was using his power to sleep with women who were of age, this wouldn't be a story. He wasn't. Jesse was using his power to prey on and solicit pornography from children.

There is no conversation to be had about 'why that happened' any more than there's any conversation to be had about any garden variety pedophile. There's a fundamental difference in Jesse and any other philandering rock star - Jesse abused children.

This isn't about 'power structures' any more than it's about 'sex addiction.' It's about the sexual abuse of children.

 

power structures can contribute to this and i dont see how you can deny that. there's a common thread between all the victims: they were fans of the band. thats how jesse had access. thats the power structure. why you're denying it just because they were under age is beyond me. it doesnt take away the seriousness of them being under age.

 

While I agree with most of what you’re saying, this part isn’t true.

 

To be honest I don’t think Jesse is a pedophile or anything, 15 year old girls incredibly impressionable and easy targets and I think that’s the bigger takeaway here. Like, the age of consent in some places is that, this is far more of a societal issue with misuse of power to take advantage of developing minds more than a legal one

 

How old do you imagine groupies were in the 60's and 70's?

Sexual abuse of children aged 13-16 has been ongoing in the entertainment industry for decades.

Jesse Lacey is in the wrong, but he is not an aberration.

 

If a month ago, a woman had described what Jesse did and had said 'I was 23 and he was 26,' we'd all have said, 'that's gross.' But there wouldn't have been canceled tour dates or people destroying music or vowing to never listen to the band again, because what a 23 and 26 year old do is significantly, fundamentally, legally different than what a 15 and 26 year old do.

And here the proof: the story about Jesse having sex with Derrick's fiancée was, a.) common knowledge, and b.) treated as a 'well I guess Jesse isn't very nice' anecdote. No one cared in any tangible way.

 

And newsflash: people in position of power have sex. With overage people. It happens. It's true, and sometimes when they are famous, that happens quite often and they change partners one hell lot. You know, like the rest of us. But not by grooming underage kids.

Picture this: can you imagine John, Paul, Elvis and even freaking Axl writing letters to their underage fans asking for nude pictures, grooming them and actively abusing them systematically? Yeah, me neither. That would be fucked up right? That's what Lacey did. And some here are shrugging it off like "oh it's groupies". Imagine that a rock star slept with a 17 year old with a fake id. Is he to blame? Well, he should be able to know better. Is that the same of Lacey's M.O. that is literally on his lyrics from their first to their last record? No. It's fucked up, but not the same. What Lacey did is what sexual predators do. Face that. Understand that. Then listen to whatever the shit you want to.

 

And since then, as a society, with the help of mental health professionals and law enforcement, we have determined that 13-16 year olds are children who cannot legally consent.

You're acting like the world hasn't changed in 40-50 years. It has.

 

if Jesse abused several women of age emotionally? Sure we would.

 

If these girls were 18 I would not think this situation any differently.

 

no one's saying jesse isnt a predator and what he did is completely wrong. but if you dont think his position in a popular band allowed him to take advantage of these underage girl and protected him for years and years i would say you're wrong.

 

if Jesse wasn’t in a famous band none of this would have happened, since these girls wouldn’t have been idolizing him and there wouldn’t have been a situation for him to take advantage of them

 

How is this "whataboutery" and "whataboutism" shit helping dialogue? Shutting down a conversation you're not knowledgeable or articulate enough to properly involve yourself in is the lamest of tactics.

 

THANK YOU

 

This is completely, totally untrue. People prey on and take advantage of teenage girls every day in every place in America. Every single close friend I have that's female has stories about 20-25 year old dudes going after them/coercing them into things when they were 14-16. Which is why we passed laws saying that's child abuse.

I know dudes from my hometown with a longer list of victims than Jesse who don't have jobs or play in bands. So do you.

 

i'm not saying it doesn't happen, i'm saying in this situation his position as a band member allowed the ability to do this over and over with little consequence for years because of the importance of him in their lives.

 

Emotional abuse happens. I know serial emotional abusers from both sexes. It's fucked up, and famous people sleep around one hell lot. Both men and women. It's part of the package of being famous. You can't "groom" an overage. If Lacey did the exact same thing with several overage groupies it wouldn't be the same because those women should know better. Yes, power dynamics definitely could play a part on overage women falling for someone in a band. It definitely does. But that's a different thing altogether. We can't and we should not conflate emotional abuse of overage people with sexual abuse of underage kids. It's not the same.

Let's say St. Vincent, because that's the first name at the top of my head. She reportedly dated Cara Delavigne, then dated Kristen Stewart right afterwards. Famous people date, famous people cheat and famous people fuck. Now if Annie went around grooming underage girls that would be completely different. It's impossible to gauge emotional abuse because it's subjective and it can play out in several levels, but you can definitely tell that grooming an underage kid isn't just wrong, it's criminal, abhorrent and repulsive. We can't conflate things or we lose perspective and then we are playing an whataboutism game.

 

And I'm saying that the reason age matters is that to a 14 year old, Jesse from Brand New or Jesse the cool dude who can get you beer and invites you to the party is the same thing. They're children; they don't know any better. That's the fundamental difference between being of age and not of age.

If someone emotionally abuses someone who's of age, that's ethically bad, but not legally a crime the way it is to an underaged teen. Why is that? Because age matters in conversations about consent.

Jesse soliciting nudes from a fan isn't a crime when that fan is of an age to understand what she is doing. Jesse soliciting nudes from an underage fan is, for the same reason that it is for everyone else. Both solicitations may be because of 'power structures,' but only one harms a child who cannot legally consent.

This conversation, then, IS massively different depending on the age of the person. You might not feel different about 18 and 15, but there's a reason that the law does.