Sexism/Feminism/Womanism Discussion Thread Social • Page 6

Everything, from her deposition to her other actions before this case, all fit into the patterns of someone who has experienced abuse. I believe that is the point of the TeenVogue article.

 

I feel like that's a bit of a strawman argument, and I do know how alarmingly low the conviction rates are in cases like this. But we're talking about this specific case. And I don't think it's a bad thing to consider maybe Kesha isn't the masthead we should look to in celebrity assault cases, especially with this as muddled as it is. There are a plethora of ways to support victims and survivors outside of arguing in online communities or slandering people's names on twitter (donations to Adult Survivors of Childhood Sexual Abuse | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, etc.) Your decision to support Kesha is admirable and certainly we should all hear everyone's stories in situations like these, but keep in mind the disproving of her case doesn't disprove what's happened to women other than her. If anything, it should mark the importance of bearing witness, telling your story, and making a report or going to the police as soon as possible. That creates evidence, it removes reasonable doubt, and it give you a hell of a better shot at putting whoever harmed you away moreso than not saying anything.

 

I keep seeing this over and over again, and I don't know how to respond to it. It seems like it's propagating the idea that any kind of effort to report abuse is futile? If that's true, what does one do? Nothing? Just wait it out? I don't understand why people keep pointing out that the abused tend not to report abuse and at the same time talk about how abusers rarely get convicted. Surely there's a solution within that? I'm not trying to be incendiary, I'm genuinely concerned because if that's the case there needs to be something done to fix it, and it seems like it would start with more people coming forward. However, as someone who has never experienced abuse I don't know what is involved with that, and my heart absolutely goes out to those who have ever been denied help after reporting abuse. That is not ok.

 

I'm on my phone, Google some stuff. I specifically recall some shady stuff with kellyclarkson, and she distanced herself from him almost as soon.

But yeah Internet and a lot of society in general take the side of the accused assaulter in most cases. This is not in a vacuum, how the system works for these cases is hugely relevant and you can't just ignore that.

 

This problem exists at a systemic level. No, educating the public about survivors of abuse may not land an abuser in jail. But hopefully it will change the minds of a victim blaming society, something that is very much needed. Survivors shouldn't have to live knowing that they're abuser is walking out and about freely as they please. They shouldn't have to deal with the social stigma either.

 

You'll never hear me argue about societal education. People should learn what victim blaming is, learn about the societal stigmas of those who have claimed abuse, learn about the ridiculousness of "slut-shaming," however it should extend past those things and into a working knowledge of the legal system and the necessary proclivities to legitimately prosecute an abuser. Too often I feel like people asking questions regarding the specifics of the cases or wanting to know more details are immediately labeled "victim blamers," and that's simply not true. When someone immediately calls someone a victim blamer or a misogynist for asking questions the lawyers would ask, the jury would wonder, and the judge will address you eliminate the possibility for necessary and educating conversation which is more important now than ever. People could log onto Twitter, see a post that "KESHA IS INNOCENT" or "DR. LUKE IS INNOCENT" and never research it further, just re-post it and go on with their lives never looking further into it. That terrifies me. We have a societal responsibility to seek truth or at the very least not hinder those who are searching for it.

 

From a Kelly Clarkson interview with Entertainment Weekly:


"When asked about her comment – at the time, she tweeted, “Trying 2 not say anything since I can’t say anything nice about a person… so this is me not talking about Dr. Luke” – Clarkson told KIIS 106.5, “He’s just not a good person to me. We’ve clashed. I can’t really say anything about [Kesha’s accusations]. Her fans are like, ‘Why aren’t you standing up for her?’ and I’m like, ‘Well, I wasn’t there.’ I don’t know specifically what happened in their situation. Obviously I wasn’t there in the room. I can remark on his character.”

Clarkson called Dr. Luke’s character “poor” and said many artists don’t like working with him. “I get along with everyone I work with. I love everyone I work with. He’s just not a good guy for me,” she said.

Clarkson also said she knew nothing about the specifics regarding Kesha’s claims against Dr. Luke. “He’s never done anything like that with me […] I don’t know that situation,” she said. “I don’t know that situation. But if it’s true I can’t imagine working with someone who had done something like that.”

 

What is dangerous is this desire to pick apart of the situation in the name of some abstract truth. In actuality, it is little more than a call to inaction. You say she had to have known how damaging it would be, and that is true, but you're placing an onus on the victim. For victims, it is possible to be cognizant of such an outcome, but feel so powerless as to just go along. I don't need to hear both sides. As a man, my sole obligation is to support and believe the victim. That is it. You can invoke these formalistic arguments all you like, but the reality is, one in four women are sexually assaulted in this country. How many times do you think they've heard this line of thinking that we need both sides? How many times do you think they've been disempowered by the fact that people aren't being supportive, but withholding judgement based on principles that, given the patriarchal and misogynistic nature of this world, always-already support the man. There is no middle ground. You trying to create one is actively hurting women.

 

As I said above, my obligation is to the women. Point blank. The equivalence I am drawing isn't false; rather, it is demonstrative of the power men wield in the industry, how they can still have meaningful careers, yet a woman would be continually punished for pointing out the truth. We have seen it again and again where women are black-balled for trying to bring men in the industry to justice. Take a look at Cosby, for example. Again, this isn't meant to deny the specificity of these cases, but to draw attention to how power relations work in the real world, a world that is hostile to women and justice for them.

 

You seem like a very problem solving oriented guy, which is great. You want tangible results and from what I can infer it looks like you want it to result in someone going to jail. At least that's what I think I'm seeing. This seems to hinge on seeking some type of truth.

You mention lawyers, but lawyers get their clients off by addressing the normal behaviors of survivors that the TeenVogue article mentions, and painting it as some kind of hysteria. And as much as I'd like an abuser to go to jail and people realizing what a big and real issue abuse and sexual assault is because of it, someone shouldn't have to go to jail in order to believe a survivor's story.

I think that it's our social responsibility to help make it so that things like this never happen in the first place and that those who have had to go through such a terrible experience get the support that they need. I'm against anything that prevents or stifles this support.

 

So are you saying every time someone makes an allegation of abuse or assault occurs that the accused should be immediately found guilty without evidence or trial? I refuse to accept that I'm actively hurting women by seeking what you call an "abstract truth." I'm not even sure what that means, and it seems you're on some misguided crusade in which anyone who has the desire to seek out actualities in events is an enemy if their views don't align with yours. I'm not placing any kind of responsibility on her other than a realization that if you're pursuing a case regarding abuse, and you previously and on record stated that you weren't abused, you're going to have a hard time proving that in a court of law. You're the one creating a call to inaction with your paradoxical argument that victims shouldn't tell their stories or report to police because nothing will come of it.

 

You're absolutely right, the best possible outcome is something like this never happening again. And I don't necessarily believe someone should have to go to jail to prove a victim's story is true, but if it's brought into a court of law and the charges are dropped or dismissed I feel like that would be doubly hard on the survivor.

The legal world is full of loopholes, slime and bullshit. I see it day in and day out. I want nothing more than women-and men- to feel safe in this world, be it in a recording studio, at a show, walking home or in their own beds at night. I'm saddened that this isn't the case, and I hope we see real change to that sadness in the not so distant future. Support is important. Education is important. And I should think making an example of someone in a trial proceeding important too. For just as disheartening as it could be to young women to see this case get dismissed, I imagine it would be insanely empowering to see someone get put away for it as well after the woman was brave enough to come forward and make him stand trial for his crimes against her and humanity.

I appreciate the conversation with you man, you've made some excellent points.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I never saw Dominick say that victims shouldn't report or tell their stories. I merely saw an offering of explanations as to why they don't or why those reportings are not the most important factor in how we (the public) receive them. And supporting survivors isn't the equivalent of automatically declaring the accused guilty - that's an equivalence that I've specifically seen you draw.

I say this as a survivor who was not believed and by most, probably never will be, when I spoke about my abuse. You can provide support without throwing someone in jail without a trial. The fact is, in sexual assault cases, the victim is usually the one who is put on trial - it's one of the only times where the public opinion debate revolves around whether or not a crime actually took place and the victim is generally presumed to be lying by the courts. Pretending otherwise is contributing to rape culture, whether that's the intent or not. Combine that with the psychological trauma of abuse, and it's a perfect storm of awful for the victim whether they're a "good victim" or not. (And if we're really getting into the abstract, it's worth noting that a large portion of domestic violence is non-physical and completely legal - albeit, that's a separate conversation.)

I believe you're coming from a place of good intent. But these situations are very complicated, especially for survivors, and attitudes like yours are incredibly discouraging even if you don't intend for them to be. Also, Kesha's case isn't a criminal one in the first place. That's all.

 

Understood, and I'm sorry to hear you've had to undergo such an awful situation in the wake of your abuse. Kesha's case may not be a criminal one currently, but charges of sexual abuse are criminal in nature aren't they? In this instance she levied them in a non-criminal contract dispute as reasoning for her to be exonerated from said contract? I don't want anyone to read my posts and think I'm propagating the idea that the only way an abuser can be brought to justice is through imprisonment or the only way the abused could ever be believed is through the same outcome. I apologize if I've implied that in any way shape or form, and I certainly don't mean to be discouraging. I'm simply curious where we as a society can draw the line, and it seemed to me he was painting a picture of we must believe every victim of abuse at their word without looking further into it, which is, in my opinion a dangerous ideology. I hope you've found some kind of solace or peace in the wake of your trauma.

 

It took a long time, but I'm more or less okay now. My goal isn't to invoke sympathy, rather to explain where I'm coming from and to use my experience to (hopefully) help others. Thanks for the kind words, however.

If that's what he'd been saying, I would agree with you - but where we differ is in interpretation. I don't think that's what he was saying at all. So as a society, you ask where we draw the line - and I think that providing victims with support and trying to stay away from actively using harmful language or line of reasoning simply because they support "the way things have always been" is a good place to start. All we can control is our own choices and how we treat those around us, and abuse survivors have enough going on without society dehumanizing them and piling on asking them to prove themselves every day. Just something to think about.

 

I'll definitely take that into consideration regarding all this. Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

 

I am saying the system is broken and hostile towards women, and they should continue to put their stories out with our support; however, that they don't meet a standard, as in Kesha's case, isn't evidence of innocence. Instead, given the context, it shows how victims can be bullied and manipulated by their perpetrators. Further, with regard to being found guilty or whatever, I am speaking for myself, not the court, an institution which has proven itself an agent of patriarchy. I don't care what you accept. I don't care what you believe. This objectivity you seek is steeped in a history that tilts toward the oppression of women.

 

Also, I apologize to the women of this thread for cis-men taking up so much space. In trying to be supportive, we monopolized the thread.

 

A woman criticized a tabletop game and recieved death treats including members of the company that make the game

Tabletop Gaming has a White Male Terrorism Problem

 

I just don't have words for these instances that are happening every single day now. His tweets after her letter made me feel sick. Ian Connor Accused of Rape By Two Women

 

Calling rape "finesse" I just...

 

In response to the accusations made against Toby Turner (youtuber), he posts a 1 minute video saying everything is false and NOTHING else. Doesn't address the drugging. Doesn't address the screenshot conversations. Doesn't do anything but say "Yeah this is false" and everyone just BUYS it.

 

I hadn't heard about this but after a quick google search... all I can say is I know some of the people that dude associates with and I'm not even a little bit surprised to hear any of this.

 

This video made me feel really uncomfortable. She spends the first half of the video describing Toby Turner as an emotionally manipulative scumbag, only to then make excuses for him in the second half of the video. She doesn't seem to understand what consent is. The comments on the video are even worse...

 

Wish I could comment but I haven't watched it and don't know if I will - and I KNOW I won't be checking out the comments. Little too close to home for me.