The Wonder Years / Real Friends / Knuckle Puck / Moose Blood / Seaway Tour • Page 21

IMO, The bands that can sell out shows on their own with 1 or 2 subs could easily give exposure or for it for those bands.

 

Agreed, I think festivals are starting to catch on to this. Was great seeing Laura Stevenson, Bad Cop Bad Cop, War on Women, The Anniversary, Tigers jaw, White Lung (among others) included at Riot Fest Chicago this year.

 

A few things:
-15% is a number you pulled completely out of thin air and as there's no way to substantiate it given that the inequality in music starts young enough that there's absolutely no way to know how many women would be interested if the playing field was even... so we're not going to be humoring it as anything but a number you pulled out of thin air.
- You're equating tokenism with being given a fair chance. There is more than one all-male pop punk band who have passed over hiring women in favor of men simply because "it's easier". Similarly, we often get overlooked or written off either because of the automatic Paramore comparison or because people assume we'll be perceived as tokens, which is an infuriating brand of self-fulfilling prophecy.
-Every tour? High representation on any tour for most of these bands would be a good place to start.

If someone in music is being treated unfairly, it isn't white dudes in pop punk bands being critiqued by folks in an internet forum. It's those of us who are consistently forced to be twice as good to (maybe) get half as much.

 

Not at all but then again, there's a lot more people arriving early to a BMTH show than (insert headlining pop punk band here). I have no problem with putting a female band opening or wherever on a Wonder Years tour for example but I'd rather have that band play for 1000 people at 7pm rather than 150-200.

 

i don't think this should be genre specific. this is a problem for all scenes. it all starts with exposure. opening bands will always get the short stick but you gotta start somewhere

 

For them to play for 1000, they need to be given a chance when they play for 100. It's all gradual my guy.

 

I'd rather have that band playing for 150-200 than no one at all because nobody let them open because they were being held to a higher standard than their male counterparts.

Which, however well-intentioned, is what this is.

 

If the problem is too many white dudes, shouldn't people also be advocating for more minorities in the scene, as well?

 

You say that like we aren't.

 

I'm not arguing that there isn't a problem with the way women are treated in the scene -- there is. I guess I just don't agree that the there is an intentional push to make the pop-punk scene male-dominated. Maybe there is and I'm just blind to it. That's possible.

 

It's happening, I know a couple people who trying to set festival up for those artists.

Anyway Someone correct me if i'm wrong, I don't think that there is exact push for it(The demographic definitely is white in that scene and it defaults to that), but there is definitely pushback if anyone tries to do something different/maintain the status quo.

 

ironically this feels like my chance to plug some awesome people. that's what i'm trying to do with many others at safer scene. and if you haven't already, i'd suggest you read Anna's articles (republished originally from APnet). we also have features and interviews sections discussing sexism and assault in the scene, and trying to promote female & minority artists/musicians. this actually started from a discussion on AbsolutePunk about not having a group that tackled these issues.

Also, I posted about people/groups/orgs that are helping with this here: https://forum.chorus.fm/posts/363002 There's also @GirlsAgainst since they're not mentioned there.

 

I never said it was genre specific but go after the bands who have a greater woman/girl fan base than a band that caters to mostly dudes. You need to go after the target audience first instead of trying to convert people stuck in their ways. It'll spread, believe me, but it won't happen on a tour like this one.

 

I do enjoy the honest discussion on this. Admittedly, I'm not as tapped into the scene as others on here so I don't see a lot of what goes on. There was one other thing I was thinking about, though. Seeing as the pop-punk scene has a large female audience, is it possible that a lot of these females just prefer being fans of male bands? Isn't that kind of part of the appeal to a lot of young girls? Or do "fan girls" not make up as much of the target audience as I think?

 

Throwing a band with a female in it in the opening slot of a tour that plays 30 minutes after doors every night isn't going to make the change many people seem to think it is. If you've just included them for the sake of having a woman on the tour, that seems just as bad as not having any women on at all.

 

I guess the argument is that it's better than having none. Although I agree, a form of tokenism where promoters slap a female band at the bottom of a lineup to fulfill an acceptable quota isn't really helping anyone long-term. I would hate for bands to think that all they have to do to change the scene to be more inclusive is have or two females on the tour.

In my mind, isn't the end goal here that gender isn't even considered when selecting a lineup? Where the opportunity given to men and women progresses to a place where it is inherently equal and the quality of the music can speak for itself, whether that results in a lineup that's 20% female or 80% female. Obviously that's a long way out though. Baby steps I suppose.

 

Again, nobody is advocating for including women just because they're women. We're arguing for giving those bands a chance instead of being written off or ignored because of the double standards in place. Tokenism is not the same thing is being given a fighting chance. And, as the saying goes, the first step to solving a problem is admitting that there is one.

Edit: think of it like this. If given the choice between all dude pop punk band #715 and a comparable band with women and/or people of color, disabled people, queer people, etc... choose the latter. That's not tokenism, that's leveling the playing field. But it has to start at the bottom with which baby bands are given a chance, otherwise there won't be anyone comparable to compete in the middle levels. Which is the problem we have now, where people see that and assume it's because the other bands either don't exist or aren't as good instead of looking at the systematic root of the problem.

 

It often isn't intentional. But then, neither are most forms of oppression. That's why they're so insidious and hard to fight back against because the people perpetuating them aren't aware they're doing it.

Which is another way of saying they have privilege, by the way.

 

Are they not getting a chance though? I'll admit I'm ignorant to what goes through the mind of a promoter or band manager but are we saying they are purposely discriminating against women and excluding them because of their sex?

Like I've got to think that most of these people are probably just looking to sell tickets without thinking of gender at all. Maybe that's the problem though? But if it's a decision made without any consideration of gender at all, giving the slot to the better, more popular band then isn't that equality? My brain hurts.

 

Mayday Parade took out PVRIS as the opener for three other bands in 2014, way before they were as big as they are now. If it wasn't for that show, who knows how long it would have taken me to find their music and become as invested as I am in them now. That's an example of exposure working. I've also seen it not help female-membered bands as much as you think it would (New Found Glory/Yellowcard/Tigers Jaw tour, for example). Like you said, give the bands a chance and see what happens. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons.

 

There are a lot of sociological and economical factors here but the short answer is no, they're not given the same chance, and this is by the crowds as much as by the promoters. Female bands are by and large held to a much higher standard than their male counterparts, and a lot of that comes from the assumptions people carry about them that can color the viewing/listening experience.

And again, discrimination doesn't have to be intentional. It often is subliminal. That's why it's so dangerous and hard to "prove" but as a woman in a band, yes - it's harder for us.

 

Please do not presume to tell me what I think. Holding up one rare pop-punk tour opened for by a band with a woman that didn't yield a great payout for the band in question is a weird and kind of condescending thing to do. It's a numbers game - of course it won't always work. Opening on a tour guarantees nothing - THAT is gender notwithstanding. You up the odds when you up the numbers, and frankly your response had little to do with what I said in the first place (which is that nobody is advocating for the inclusion of female musicians based solely on the gender).

 

Anyone have an extra ticket for the Philly show?

 

That would be amazing!

Just an FYI not all female musicians are singers. For example I'm the drummer in my band and we are a male fronted band. Not meant to be snarky, just saying.

 

Desperate!!