Invasion of Ukraine • Page 171

How False Testimony and a Massive U.S. Propaganda Machine Bolstered George H.W. Bush’s War on Iraq | Democracy Now!

 

Not to mention, the US gave tacit approval for Saddam invading Kuwait and then turned on him when he did it lol

 

This statement basically summarizes why this argument keeps going in circles. I do not think the US deserves any credit whatsoever for any actions since 2022 because it is the US’s (and NATO’s) relentless pushing of the envelope that led to the invasion. (For the thousandth time, this doesn’t imply that Russia’s actions are good).

Ultimately this gets back to Wharf’s point that this was foreseeable and preventable. And I think it’s incredibly naive to think the US will be able (or willing) to rectify yet another foreign disaster given our abysmal track record.

 

I’m not in the mood to go down a rabbit hole on this, but I think this is a totally inaccurate and context-free interpretation of what happened during this period

 

I wasn't trying to make Kuwait out to be some great country, just that I think it's probably a good idea to prevent sovereign nations from invading others for conquest, as that tends to snowball as we've seen throughout history. It would be kind of interesting to see what an alternate reality Kuwait looks like though. Obviously Saddam had his own rumors (and confirmations) of brutality, especially with the Kurds, not sure how that would have translated to Kuwaiti peoples.

 

Well it's also not the main point, you were trying to insinuate that people supporting helping Ukraine now would have supported invading Iraq in 2003 and some of us were actually around long enough to have actually been against in back then while being in support of helping Ukraine now lol

 

Fuck man that's the oldest I've ever felt typing something I think.

 

You say "it's probably a good idea to prevent sovereign nations from invading others for conquest," but what you're describing specifically is the US preventing that. And knowing as we do that the US has no issue invading others for conquest, what this leads to in the real world is the US being the only country allowed to invade others for conquest.

 

Also I think revolutionary invasions of reactionary sovereign countries is good. Napoleon was good

 

I remember watching the grainy nighttime videos of missiles hitting buildings on the news as a kid and saying something dumb like "whoa cool" and my dad - who just very enthusiastically voted for donald trump - distractedly scolding me while staring at the TV saying "Eric, there are people inside those buildings"

 

the part I struggle to accept, and why I have played a part in keeping this argument going in circles, is that Russia definitely could have chosen not to invade Ukraine. it was not a foregone conclusion. acting like it was feels dangerously close to giving them a pass for it to to me.

 

Well that's why we continue to speak out and protest and etc when the US does it too of course. It's not saying it's good when the US does it, but the US or anyone else preventing countries from getting swallowed up by others is generally the right thing to do, IMO.

Thought I wouldn't really feel the need to help Israel if they got invaded right now lol

 

I was only I think 4 when Desert Storm happened and I still have some very faint memories of seeing those grainy nighttime videos and such on the TV in our living room at the time. But mostly I remember the videos of Clinton bombing Iraq and I think some of the Serbia/Yugoslavia stuff too. I don't remember thinking much about it, just remember my mom wanting me to not be afraid/not letting me watch it for long lol

In 2003 I just remember thinking that they didn't have anything to do with 9/11 and it just felt like Bush trying to finish the job is father started and wanting the oil. Obviously way deeper than all that but I was 14 or 15 at the time so lol.

 

I assume we’re lumping in the same bucket “conquest to physically take over land and declare as yours”, and “materially support one side of a struggle over another”, or something to that effect

 

I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think it’s giving them a pass. Yes, they made a choice, but it was a choice we knew they would make in response to our actions. That’s what I mean by foreseeable and preventable.

To go back to the Mexico/China analogy that kicked this off: if China set up a military presence on the Mexico border, the US would make the choice to invade, and China definitely knows that. So, yes, it’s the US’s choice but it would be foreseeable, and preventable (by China not doing that).

 

I think the focuse on "conquest" is misguided regardless because neocolonialism doesn't require any such thing

 

First of all, pretty wide gap here, no? When a US enemy does an aggressive military action, you support (in Ukraine) giving the attacked as much materiel as necessary and (in Kuwait) joining the war full scale in defense. But when the US does it you support...speaking out? You don't support the actual armed resistance to the US or its allies, I know this from our discussions about Hamas.

So again, what this essentially amounts to is the US getting to do what it wants, because US arms do a lot more than US anti-war protesters, and you don't support armed resistance supported by anyone but the US.

To steal from...Felix? Chris Wade? Blowback? one of those...you can't have the Good War without the Bad War. The US is able to do some Good Things only because it does many Bad Things. And to continue to do either, it has to turn any Good Thing it does into a Bad Thing.

 

I think hitting Dnipro with the Oreshnik was a clear signal that Russia's missile are in good working order, and a reminder that they could easily surprise everyone with a nuclear strike that catches everyone with their pants down

 

Nabiullina announced that almost all resources of the Russian economy have been exhausted

 

not a sign of being at risk of becoming hegemon tbh

 

Russia using a nuke on Ukraine would be absolute fucking insanity, hegemon or no

 

Tbh, all of my direct relatives who are pro-Ukraine were all against the Iraq war and despised the Bush administration.

 

also, I know this was a different thread, but I watched Reds all the way thru today and honestly it is probably one of the best movies I have ever seen. definitely on my short list. the story, the politics, the way the interviews with the witnesses are woven in, Vittorio Storaro's photography, young Jack Nicholson - I could go on and on

 

it is incredible isn't it, I went into it like alright worst case it's a nerdy movie right up my nerd alley but turns out it's that plus everything you said. can't sing it's praises enough. haven't seen it in years maybe i'll go back soon

 

Why Russia’s oppression of Ukraine stretches back centuries