Accountability in Music • Page 876

Not discrediting the 99 allegations claim, but does anybody have a link (if possible) to all the allegations? 99 is a lot and I don’t remember reading that many back when the original allegations came out but I could just be misremembering.

 

Okay so I found this, which goes through the “X number of allegations claim”

If there are in fact any number of allegations, then obviously that is bad and it would be important to know about it, and again I don’t want to discredit any victims here, but it doesn’t seem like the person who made the claim ever provided any sources for their “97 allegations” claim and wasn’t completely consistent in their claim throughout.

(To be clear, not saying all of the allegations are false, just was curious on the “97 allegations” and if there was a list of them somewhere and came across the above)

 

Really kind of feels like a "where there's smoke, there's probably fire" situation to me. Something isn't adding up. Any kind of allegation being made up or even embellished is awful, but based on everything I've read/know about the band, I'm having a pretty hard time believing that none of what's been said has any accuracy to it. It's enough to keep me away, not that I'm really interested in that kind of music anyways (besides the point).

 

I think it was 97. I think the problem was dietsodasage was likely counting them out of curiosity just to see how many they could find and share with their friends on numbers twitter (8123 fans), never thinking the number they counted would get cited so they didn't save any evidence of what they found. I didn't know them but saw all the conversations at the time as a fan of the maine and someone who had my own reasons for believing the allegations after being in atl thc for 9 years. After the TikTok, I read a bunch of allegations of sexual harassment, including one that had a video where you could hear Jack saying something inappropriate to a minor about her body that she filmed because he always made her feel uncomfortable at meet and greets. I couldn't find it again, along with a bunch of other ones, once they filed the suit. while the atlstatement story and the TikTok may have been false, I do believe dietsodasage counted 97 allegations/instances and couldn't find links to them when they were included in the suit so they were forced to withdraw what they said and atl gets to say the number was made up when that wasn't quite true

 

a lot of posts like this that are gone now

 

I remember on the original alt press podcast (back when it was actually on your iPod), they had the manager of ATL on and he discussed how wild they were. His example was getting a call from one of them saying “I just made out with a 16 year old” and the manager would go “you’re in Nevada? Ok then, you’re good!” (Because of consent laws). Wonder if that pod still exists somewhere

 

From what I've heard that user that counted "97 allegations" weren't really allegations, but they would count up every time Jack said a sexual joke on stage and counted it as an "allegation"

 

The "97 allegations" were never that and became this go to phrase that got pounced on and exacerbated. The person took it upon themselves to count questionable stories from various social media platforms over the years and deemed what they saw fit as "allegations." Majority of these were Jack saying gross, flippant shit to people. There were people who came out and said they did not want their stories counted as an allegation as that was misrepresention. Unfortunately, the 97 allegations person died by suicide, apparently due to being trans and having an unsupportive family. But I have seen this be weaponized towards ATL.

If you liked this band prior to 2017 you saw their entire shtick was being overtly sexual. It's in podcasts, dvds, youtube interviews and performances. It was inevitable for all that to not be seen through present day eyes as completely irredeemable. It was bad! I personally have yet to hear stories where Jack's very public comments to fans lead to anything further. It was a horrible look that could only exist up to a certain time, but the connections to prove anything predatory or systemic have not been there. This band was incredibly accessible for many years and I have a hard time believing there was exactly 1 wild story of abuse and not a rainfall of systemic grooming given how accessible they were.

 

Listening to this now, thanks!
https://www.altpress.com/ap_podcast_14-guest_keith_lazorchak/

 

That's the thing about grooming though, if the abuser is good at it, the victim believes it was consensual and their idea, completely discounting the fact an adult in a band they liked was flirting with them and showering them with attention when they were a minor. Jack was a creep and absolutely flirted with girls at meet and greets back then. I saw it myself but have no proof beyond my word that it occurred regularly in my area in the late 2000s/early 2010s

 

I know he said a lot of things. Directly to fans, onstage, publicly, in m&g and at signings. ATL would post these things themselves. And I have said before, I fully think he and the band should acknowledge that behavior and that people who ever felt victimized by the uncomfortable shit Jack did and said deserve the accountability the want whether they knew it was bad in 2013 or didn’t gain confidence in that understanding till 2018. But hearing all these stories of things Jack said has not equated to stories of predatory actions beyond that. There is no reported pipeline of Gross comment at m&g to sexual encounter or physical abuse. Maybe girls who were groomed and then physically harmed have yet to come forward. I’m open to that. But terrible caricature who was enabled by the state of the scene does not equate abuser and I do think the nuance matters.

 

I gotta imagine there is historically a pipeline between these things for many, many artists

 

Absolutely! I'm so grateful for the accountability forums (plus articles and outside sources having these discussions) for pointing out these patterns of behavior. And from what we've historically seen, once that twitter allegation dropped for ATL, I waited for the same cycle we've seen a horrific number of times of other women having similar abuse stories. I waited for this sort of pipeline to come to light about Jack's words turning to actions. None of that happened. And I don't mean to bat so hard for this band but I don't follow many artists as closely as I've followed them, had friends work with or hook up with them, and watched them change their behaviors. Knowing what this band's image was for so many years had me ready in 2015 to see if they were just bad jokes ala Blink or if they were abusers and I don't think it's nitpicky to point out that flippant comments have thus far been a false equivalency to assault or abuse.

 

With that chiodos tour coming up, how the hell has Craig Owens not been outed?

 

theres been things posted about him on here throughout the years if im not mistaken. its absolutely not news that hes another scumbag.

 

what is the context of "hook up with them" though? Is it two adults meeting each other and hooking up or fans who were in thc/fhc and went to meet and greets for years when they were minors where they were subjected to the kind of inappropriate comments this band is known to have openly made to girls and then hooked up with a band member later after they became legal so the person views it as consensual? I acknowledge your friends' stories aren't my business, but I suspect a lot of fans' anecdotes about consensual sexual encounters with members of atl would be considered grooming if you looked at a timeline of events and not just the hookup

 

I do not know of anyone personally, through the grapevine, or anecdotally who has met Jack through conventional fan interactions and went on to have any sort of sexual relationship with him. I am not saying that has never happened, but I am saying that's what keeps being inferred despite those types of stories not publicly existing. Based on the twitter allegation, these were the types of stories I expected and instead they were all the same inappropriate behavior that was on public display for a decade. Which again, was not good! But not the same as what keeps being assumed despite no one saying that. If you know otherwise, I would love to connect via message and reevaluate.

 

Craig is 100% not a good person and a creep, speaking from personal experience of dealing with him being weird to a friend.

 

I remember hearing shit about Craig Owens as early as 2007 when I was in 7th grade but unfortunately nothing I can really corroborate because it was all secondhand accounts from people I have long since had zero contact with

 

Had the same experience with my friend

 

I don't mean to draw attention to someone who may no longer post on this site for a reason (I'm honestly not sure), but I believe if you search his name, there's been another personal experience posted in this thread before as well.

 

Was that part in this podcast?! I feel like ATL still have a lot to be accountable for and it shouldn’t just be a blank slate for them. They contributed to a culture of sexualising underage audiences for a long time, collecting bras from teenagers etc - stuff that is totally out in the open. I loved them growing up but as an adult I cannot believe that shit was so normalised. Would love to see them at least acknowledge this

 

It doesn't specify ATL but it is fucking nauseating to hear. Near the the last 8-9 mins he straight up says he was recently joking with another manager that the day sheets should include age of consent for the state a band is playing in and then goes onto the band member text. Throughout the podcast he talks about all the bands he is managing and does not say which band sent the text. The date listed on website is 2010 but based on the convo it was recorded in 2008. He also talks about ATL having "profane humor" and parent complaints.

IA, I would love to see them actually take accountability for helping build that culture. A lesser reason, but one of many reasons the lawsuit fucking sucked was choosing that route didn't allow for nuance of them to acknowledge any wrongdoing and instead it was the cold, shitass statement of being angels.

 

If we’re going to discuss sexualizing audiences are we just going to ignore Blink from 1999-2004?

Go back and listen to the Mark Tom and Travis Show. This is such stupid revisionist history.

 

"Hey! Listen here you fuc... BOOBIES!!"