General Politics Discussion (XI) [ARCHIVED] World • Page 1484

every actual innocent life that died on oct 7th is shitsrael's fault.

 

I can find it objectively wrong to kill civilians raving next to a concentration camp but also recognize I am not under oppression like people in Gaza and I might feel justified in doing something wrong if I was in those circumstances. However in no circumstance can I imagine justifying what Israel has done to Palestinians for decades

 

I understand why it happens too. Compared to the suffering unleashed in Gaza its certainly not where the global outrage should be focused

But pretending like Hamas are good guys seems patently absurd to me. They are a terrorist organization who constantly show no regard for human life (even Palestinian life)

 

this string of words just shows how fucked the situation is

 

I hear you, I guess I’ll put it this way: In the world the West/Israel have created, what you get is Hamas. What you get is October 7th.

 

no they're not

 

fully agree with that. But I think there is a different between acknowledging this, and defending the attackers or suggesting that the people killed weren't innocent

Hamas being a byproduct of the Israeli occupation doesn't make Hamas good, it just further highlights how evil the occupation is because it feeds other evils like Hamas.

If you throw a bunch of wet clothes in the basement... you're going to get mold which is going to further damage everything else in the basement and even start spreading to other parts of the house. It's a clear side effect of your mistreatment of the basement, and if all you try to do is toss bleach on everything to kill the mold without going at the source of the problem you're just going to make everything worse. The ultimate cause of the problem is still the way you treated the basement, and just pearl grasping over the mold without addressing how it got there in the first place misses the point. But that doesn't mean the mold is a good thing that should be celebrated.

 

cluckmala here with the "Hamas is Evil" basura.

 

Yeah but there’s understanding it and then there’s excusing it/celebrating it lol

 

Well, for starters, a person’s ability to go to a music festival next to a concentration camp does call their morality into question to me. You and me would likely not feel okay doing that. Does it make them people who should be killed? Not necessarily, but i won’t blame Palestinians for not distinguishing between them and the people making decisions to keep them in a concentration camp.

As for comparing resistance to captivity/genocide to mold…. idk, man. Again, I come back to the people who our country violated in ways worse than can ever be tolerated. I don’t think we can actually judge the shape resistance to conditions we could never fathom takes.

 

Except in this case the “mold” are human beings and members of an oppressed people who are resisting a colonial power that has had their boot on their neck for 75 years with the backing of the most powerful nation on earth.

And I personally don’t feel like I’m in much of a position to tsk tsk how they are choosing to mount their resistance from the comfort of my home in the enabling nation.

 

Civilians died in John Brown’s raid too. I also think John Brown was a good guy.

 

and then there's doing both!

tbh, i dont celebrate oct 7th. but i did respect and support the act as a feat of armed anti-colonial struggle.

 

yeah but iirc it wasn’t his main objective to capture and kill civilians. I think that changes the calculation for a lot of people. But again I’m not here to talk about why what Hamas did may or may not be “bad”. Like i said I understand why it happened and anyone paying attention to what’s been happening over there could have seen something like this coming a mile away. But I’m also not celebrating it as some great victory or good deed lol. Like I think it’s perfectly reasonable to go the “without condoning or condemning” route with stuff like this.

 

People on this thread were literally suggesting its a good thing they were killed

 

right, the main objective was to attack military targets surrounded by human shields and take human shields hostage to barter them for release of their own prisoners plus and alleviate the conditions of their their decade long siege.

 

cluckmala definitely got me blocked or something.

its not that i celebrate their death is more that i just dont fucking care plus i support armed anti-colonial struggle. think you can fight colonialism without "innocent" colonizers dying? come on now.

 

I think revolt is something to be supported when the alternative is facing annihilation and continued misery. The comments that kicked this conversation off were Nate saying “free Hamas” and “innocent” and I agree with those two comments - not because I think Hamas rocks, or because civilians getting killed is good, but because the alternative feels like using my notions of “sanctity of life” or whatever as a guy brought up in America to say the resistance of Palestinians living a completely different reality than you or I could ever imagine should have been different. I don’t think I’m in a position to scold American slaves, or Native Americans, etc., so I similarly don’t feel that I’m in a position to scold Palestinians.

 

You responded to Nate saying “innocent” and “free Hamas.” With the context we have, he isn’t wrong to feel that way in my opinion.

 

wHy ArE tHe AdVeRtISErS LeAvInG?!?!

 

I know there were conflicting reports but I think even Israel is saying Hamas didn’t even know about the music festival, it’s not like they were targeting that. And we still don’t know how many civilians there were killed because of Israel’s response. I think it’s ridiculous to always have to talk about October 7th when literally any other day before or after ruins the innocence of Israel’s position, but even when talking about October 7th we always just fall into the propaganda of everyone was killed by Hamas and they killed babies and raped when the proven rapes have been by Israel and the targeting of babies has been by Israel. Following this conflict will make you go insane I swear

 

I think it’s being lost in the shuffle that the initial post that led to this conversation was the news that Hamas is having criminal charges against it brought by the administration that many people in this thread plan to vote for, and which is currently supporting Israel with weapons, money, and - as evidence by that news - diplomatic support. If Hamas is a terrorist organization that should not be celebrated, what’s that make our government and our elected officials?

I don’t bring this up to try and shame people voting for the Dems, but moreso to say pearl clutching around Hamas or throwing around terms like “terrorists” is really not something we are in a position to do.

 

this is fuckin gross. do not compare Hamas to the United States.