Invasion of Ukraine • Page 152

Excellent - should make a huge difference towards new supplies and reconstruction throughout the country

G7 agrees $50bn loan for Ukraine from frozen Russian assets

 

Russia's war in Ukraine began in Crimea. It could end there, too, defense experts say.

 

fucking disgusting

no excuse

 

As Power of Siberia 2 Pipeline Stagnates, So Do Russia's Hopes for Pivoting Gas Exports Eastward - Ukraine Today .org

 

Sounds like Nazi behavior to me. Do they use any Nazi imagery?

 

Raped by Russian Soldiers, Ukraine Women Speak Out to Erase Stigma

 

are these designs in the room with us right now...?

 

denial.

you smarter than this

 

I don't like the narrative that the US & NATO have all of these devious, aggressive machinations while Russia is just an innocent victim forced into reacting to circumstances the only way they can whether they want to or not

also, I think claiming encirclement is just plain silly

 

I get that claiming you fear encirclement is better than saying you have certain very specific security concerns that are going to necessitate invading or subjugating somewhere between 4 and 7 neighboring countries, but it is still fucking silly

 

this is a good line of questioning for someone uncritical of russias actions

 

The point isn't that Russia is "innocent" it's that we just read GWB's ambassador to Russia (and Biden's CIA director) give a read of Russia's geopolitical views and aims in 2008 that was essentially accurate. And then we all lived through 15 years of NATO diplomacy that was not what it would have been based on that assessment and a goal of avoiding war in Ukraine.

It doesn't matter if encirclement is a real threat, if it's perceived in the Kremlin and informing their policy, NATO's diplomatic decisions ignore it at the risk of triggering the very consequences that memo warns of. That doesn't acquit Russia, but it is another entry into the giant pile of evidence that NATO's goal was never to avoid a war in Ukraine.

 

MEMO: Watch out for this guy, he's very territorial and paranoid and has nukes

NATO: Bet lol, what do u think will happen if I go over there and stand real close to him lol

 

as usual, I agree with a lot of what you say but disagree entirely with your conclusions

I have no idea who Pawel Wargan is, but I reject his framing in the original post

I also think saying that Russia was afraid of civil war erupting in Ukraine and having to reluctantly intervene is beyond silly

 

specifically which NATO diplomatic decisions?

 

Yeah I care a lot more about the actual text than whoever that guy is. I find it pretty plausible that in 2008 Russia was not eager to have to intervene in a war in Ukraine based on the actual war they fought it 08. Very different situation in the region now obviously but was so even in 2020 vs 08

pretty much all of these:

Diplomatic Cables Prove Top U.S. Officials Knew They Were Crossing Russia’s Red Lines on NATO Expansion

It's not just other countries joining either:

The first round of NATO enlargement was followed by the organization bombing Yugoslavia in 1999, which was done without the UN Security Council authorization, and triggered Russia to cut off contact with the alliance. By 2000, the revised Russian national security strategy warned that NATO’s use of force beyond its borders would be seen as “a threat of destabilization of the whole strategic situation,” while military officers and politicians started claiming “that if NATO expands further, it would ‘create a base to intervene in Russia itself,’” the Washington Post reported.

[...]

“Putin had clearly embarked on an ‘integrationist’ foreign policy at the beginning of his second presidential term, which was fueled by the 9/11 terrorist attacks and good relations with key leaders like President Bush” and other leading NATO allies, Kortunov said according to the cable. “However,” he said, “a string of perceived anti-Russian initiatives,” which included Bush’s withdrawal from the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty and “further expansion of NATO,” ultimately “dashed Putin’s hopes.”

etc

 

do you think a sovereign country should be allowed to join an alliance if they choose to do so, regardless of what neighboring countries may or may not think?

 

Saying yes is a great way to get lots of people killed, but hey at least it feels good

 

so are you saying the answer is no?