Jimmy Eat World - Integrity Blues (October 21, 2016) Album • Page 102

You bringing up the hive mind thing was kind of snide when you already know it's a touchy subject. Seems like you're still annoyed at me and are finding ways to vent that annoyance in ways that aren't really relevant. Unless of course you were joking, which I thought you were at first.

 

I mean, I know there's a difference between disagreement and just going after someone, and that to me seemed like more of the latter

 

This is how I took it too. Sorta like how on AP I'd disagree with someone sometime and they'd be all "yeah well you like ALL TIME LOW" and I'm like....okay?

 

No, not necessarily. I think objectively speaking though, artistic vision matters to a song's aesthetic value though. I am not of the belief that art is audience. Art can be art independent of audience (look at, for example, Emily Dickinson's poetry) and so artist intentions could and should be taken into account when evaluating the artistic merits of a piece of art. And as such, I feel it's unfair to ever say a demo version is superior or more effective than a finished album version, as that album version is the total summation of the artist's vision for that composition.

 

Didn't read that as attacking at all, no ones been attacked in this thread. Just discussion

 

That's a fair point. So, in that case I will say "I don't like the song" because I don't like how that summation of vision ended up. I added to that opinion by saying that I do like the demo version and I think the songwriting is so good that the song at one point had a lot of potential. But you're free to put aside that aspect of my opinion and go ahead with the knowledge that I do not like Dizzy. Like you said, the song is what it ultimately ended up becoming on the album.

 

I can understand that point of view, but in this case for me the production only enhances the emotion from Jim's vocals, lyrics, and the band. I love raw, stripped down arrangements.. but personally I feel like this song benefits from being huge in its delivery, just based on the lyrical content and overall moodiness of the song.

 

Not sure if I'm included in this interpretation, but I definitely don't want that. Like I said, the demo made me envision the song going in one direction, and the album version didn't quite hit that mark. If I never heard the demo, I might not be cursed with my opinion of the song. I wish I just heard the final version first. This is another reason I don't like hearing live versions of songs before they're released on an album. You sort of create this expectation that's neither right nor wrong, but it can't be sustainable when you don't have control over the outcome. Of course, there are times when the album version exceeds your expectations, but this just wasn't one of those times. I really hate breaking it down this way because it makes it seem like I don't like Dizzy. I do. I just feel like there will forever be this footnote to my opinion of the song.

 

I don't put much stock into artist intent frankly

 

Yeah for me the production enhances the emotion on that song so much. Plus as said above the bass and vocals are so great.

 

It would be boring if we all took the same thing from every song. Like Jim often says, for him music is about putting it out there and letting to audiences build their own connections and associations with it, and I think it's cool that different songs mean different things to different people in different ways.

 

If we can't discuss things we disagree on, what's the point of even discussing things in here?

Yeah, there's going to be some contention, and perhaps even some bringing in of evidence that may discount the opposing viewpoint's argument. That's literally how debating works. The alternative evidence I gave was that my opposition holds the belief that an album that objectively speaking, even by the band itself, sounds really really amateurish is worthy of the same praise and consideration as later records with larger recording budgets.

I understand you're trying to avoid the sort of pointless name calling that occurred on AP, but simply pointing out flaws in opposing arguments and debating them in reasoned, well-thought out critiques shouldn't be tone policed.

 

I do agree with this very much

 

I mean, there is no flaw in my "argument". And there is no debate about whether or not I like the album version of Dizzy. So "I disagree" should be enough, really. Say what you like/dislike about a song. Bringing in any "evidence" isn't really necessary when it isn't really a debate, it's just me presenting my opinion. I wasn't ever expecting to win anyone over to my opinion on Dizzy. I love that you guys love the album version. I wish I did.

Edit: Are you saying my opinion is less valid because I happen to like an album that the band doesn't like? There is no objectivity in art, and my opinion on one thing doesn't negate my opinion on another.

 

Really? This is an interesting argument about the critique of art and art philosophy as a whole that I'd love to get more information on about your opinion of.

How do you square that belief with the examples of artists who kept their art locked away from outsider perspective, only to have it released later in their life or upon their death?

 

Yeah, I didn't tone police you pointing out a flaw in an opposing argument. I took issue with you bringing back another opinion from the user that he was pretty mocked for in the past, where it had no place in this current discussion. Again, not that different from "well you like band X so your opinion is invalid" which is specifically one of the things we're supposed to be avoiding on the new site.

 

Opinions are arguments, though, and those arguments can be flawed. To say that simply because it's opinion it can't be wrong is a ludicrous logical fallacy. Donald Trump's statements alone could disprove that notion in 4 seconds flat

 

Yeah I'm starting to feel like this situation is like "yeah well you like 1994 S/T, so who cares about your opinion".

I mean, not that I mind if anyone cares about my opinion anyway I guess.

 

You have the hive mind joke in your user title though?

 

His opinion about the self-titled had a significant place in this discussion though as it directly relates to why he finds the demo version of Dizzy to be superior to the album version. Don't come at me and say that has no bearing on this discussion.

And yes, my argument against his statement was vastly different than the dismissive argument you bring up at the end there, and using that as a counter example against debating is wrong-headed

 

If you want to argue about which version of Dizzy is better then by all means, get into that argument with somebody. I have no interest in arguing the objective merit of a purely subjective art form.

An opinion on the quality of a piece of art can't be wrong, in my opinion. And especially if we are discussing the nuances of how produced one particular song is compared to its demo version. So minute, there's bound to be sway in peoples' appreciation of it.

 

Tbh my own interpretation of any art is typically what matters most to me. For example, given the Dizzy argument, i wouldn't care much that they put the "more produced" version on the album if I liked the acoustic version better. That's the bands decision to make and I respect it, but that doesn't mean I don't think it'd be improved with the other version. Not sure if I'm making much sense here but yeah, I obviously respect an artist's autonomy to do what they want, but that in and of itself doesn't make it necessarily better to me. It's like if a band says what they meant one of their songs to be about and I derive a different meaning for it, their intent doesn't supersede my interpretation.

 

No, it doesn't directly relate to why I prefer the demo version of Dizzy, I'm sorry to tell you. And I am the only one who can decide on that too. I would love it if 1994 S/T had more pristine production. It's production is one of its glaring drawbacks. I don't like that album for its production so it has nothing to do with what I feel about Dizzy. I don't blame you for assuming that though.

Glad that's cleared up.

 

"Dizzy" would be a great song in any incarnation, but the studio version is how it was meant to be heard, absolutely. I don't think hearing that song acoustic, in demo form, or even live quite does it justice.

 

Well this got a little weird. Anyway, can't wait to listen to this album. I've only listened to Get Right and Sure and Certain handful of times. Can't wait to dive into it fresh