Bad opinions • Page 237

ok but christianity is not a monolith as i'm sure you would agree for any other religion. i mean, hi! there are plenty of poc/female/lgbt christians out there as well! while i appreciated you bothered to at least vehemently clarify "white" and/or "American", religion is still a lot more complex than most people on here seem to make it out to be. it doesn't automatically mean right-leaning, while i realize it does often. and still, the initial comment that led to this conversation only mentioned Dustin being an evangelical Christian, there was no further perspectives given by said poster.

right but a job is a different situation.

still, i would find it ignorant to just, off the surface brush off someone because of their religious affiliation. it's still an assumption. would you think that way of other religious groups or just christianity? it's just a really broad topic and considering my background i'd like for more people think a bit more openly about this. like i just said to Nathan, this is a lot more complex and people simplify this which just leads to erasure and ignorance and i think that's harmful.

i'm broadening the topic a bit because of my background/identity, but i think it's something people should try to think about sometimes.

i would like for people to read this post i made a while back: https://forum.chorus.fm/posts/447395

sorry if i come across confrontational/selfish or if i've bothered anyone, this is just a bit more personal to me than most so it's a bit hard to ignore.

 

I understand that no religion is a monolith. I never advocated for brushing off any artist for their religious beliefs. I just stated that I understand the perspective. I grew up queer in a climate where white Christians made up the majority of my classmates. While not all of them were bigoted or bad people, 100% of the bullying, hate speech, and sometimes violence against me and my non-straight, non-Christian (particularly Muslim) friends came from white Christians. I don't hold this against every Christian person. My first post in here today was about how much I love Kirk Franklin's music. All I said was I understand if someone, particularly from a background where Christianity was an overbearing and negative source of oppression or violence, is surveying all the music there is to choose from out there, sees a heavy Christian influence in the artist and decides to skip it.

That said, I am sorry for my post. It was critical of Christianity and I attempted to clear up that I would never try and dictate what art anyone consumes, because I wouldn't want my words to lead to someone feeling unwelcome to discourse. I don't have a lot of time right now, so I will save the post you linked to for later, but I appreciate your speaking up and will try to be cognizant of the way I post here.

 

Fair enough, I just feel like the weakerthans are a pop heavy pop punk band while the others are more punk heavy

Also this thread is a great place right now ❤️

 

Work just became crazy for a moment so I apologize for the delay in response. This is an excellent post and I agree with it entirely. As you referenced, I feel a lot of it does have to do with Western/European upbringing and seeing Christianity as the "powerhouse" even though, as you also said, extremities exist in all faiths and we shouldn't attack the faith themselves for what extremists in said faiths do.

I do feel like our entire debate comes down to interpretation of the original post, since we interpreted it in different ways (and yes, I'll admit that I added context that may not have been added by the poster, just from what I had heard about the artist in question) we saw it as different kinds of assertations towards Christianity. I read it as a criticism of an extremist, and you read it as a criticism of the faith as a whole. There's a lot more I could say about it all, but you already eloquently described it all, including what my general thought towards it all is, in your linked post. My explanation is not needed and I'm glad you gave me your perspective on everything, because it is all very important to remember.

 

Re Artists and bad politics: Check out this article


"But how much more complex if the aesthetic power inheres not despite but in part because of those political problems? What if vision and toxin are inextricable?.....
In the great horror writer H.P. Lovecraft, to quote Michel Houellebecq, ‘[r]acial hatred provokes … the trancelike poetic state in which he outdoes himself by the mad rhythmic pulse of cursed sentences’: no poison, no poetry. The extraordinary novels of D. Keith Mano are inseparable from his unorthodox, conservative Christianity. This list, of course, could continue a long time.
Like Phillips, we do not want to deny ourselves such work. To do so would be prudish and disingenuous. But to deny the oppressive spite which powers it would be apology. We have to diagnose and criticise those drives that generate the very stuff that we also continue to recognise might awe and inspire us....The best way to fight for the culture we deserve is to fight the system that throws up the culture we are offered. To demand choices that matter necessitates the destruction of the system of choices we have. Not because we can never effect changes in culture: we can – but a change at that level alone will be a poisoned gift. ‘With the help of diversity consultants and a cautious manner,’ Gary Younge cautions, ‘the careful can carry on doing bad things so long as they don’t say the wrong thing’."

From Choice to Polarity: Politics of, and, and in Art | Salvage

I disagree with some of it, as I have ceased listening to artists for the things they've said or done outside of art. Kanye, for example, with his declaration of Cosby's innocence. The issue for me, however, was the extent to which actual damage is being incurred on women of color who were seeking justice from the person who assaulted them. Similarly, film buffs may say that "Birth of a Nation" was a masterpiece visually speaking, but it was actually a cultural artifact that was evidence for institutions of power that would subject people to lynching. Whether or not Dustin falls into that category, I don't particularly know. I do know that evangelical Christianity, as the cultural and political bloc we know, arose out of the ashes of progress in the '70's and destroyed many people's lives.

 

Oh I completely understand and I'm sorry about that. I myself have trouble with certain aspects of myself and how it's hard to deal with because of religion surrounding family. My perspective is to not dismiss any criticisms of how Christianity has done harm or how people have done harm in the name of it, just rather the way the conversation is had, esp when there are non-white/non-straight people involved, esp of particular ethnic minorities. But I outlined that in a much more broad manner in the post I linked. I appreciate your response. :)

No I agree, there's been misunderstanding regarding the post itself and it came to this haha. But I'm glad the discussion was had regardless.

 

It's grown on me somewhat but I still like it less than the previous version

 

Oh wow seems like my post sparked some discussion here. Thanks!

Two very good posts. For better or worse, I do care about the musicians whose music I enjoy. I can not listen to the music of someone who is a nazi, even if he does not sing about it, privately. Being involved in a evangelical mega church project, institutions that spread fear, sexual oppression, homophobia, greed and hate, comes close to that. I will not listen to bands involved in that kind of crap. Kensrue left and some of you have pointed out good things, so I might check them out.

Still, megachurches and evangelicalism are deeply immoral and have, in my humble opinion, no place in a "scene" that prides itself with forward-thinking ideals, a scene that started out as a safe space for people not involved with the religious majority.

Or as The Wonder Years put it: It's a gang mentality, it's a dangerous thing. They don't ask you to think, just repeat after me.

Thanks for all the responses though so far. Maybe i'll give newer thrice a shot..

 

Irony there regarding The Wonder Years and gang mentality...

 

What's crazy is people (by people I mean us that were discussing it) were pretty much asking for the bare minimum from them about all that. Like, the bare minimum. And they couldn't deliver.

 

Could you please explain that? It might be because English is not my mother language or just because I am not filled in on something here..

 

Someone will likely explain it better than me but: The Wonder Years have thrown support behind a sexual abuser, as have a lot of other pop punk bands in their "scene", despite the abuser being clearly guilty and the knowledge being widespread amongst them.

That's a very very short summary, and I do recommend you look further into it. Others can likely give the details much more coherently and accurately, but that's the gist of it.

 

abuser in question is named john james ryan

 

Thank you. Couldn't remember if it was JJR related or Harry related.

 

God it's crazy that we actually have to narrow it down when it comes to this

 

the two are tied up iirc, but TWY are and remain close with JJR i believe

 

Uhhh last I heard no one in TWY was on speaking terms with JJR

 

You (and others) would likely definitely know better than me. All the knowledge I had on it was from y'all on AP so yeah.

 

I heard directly from their guitarist (nick, who was very good friends with him) that they stopped speaking. this was about a year ago maybe less

 

oh shit never knew. thanks

 

Yup same here, very good to know

 

Anyway don't listen to me about any music artist's personal life apparently because I can't keep up with shit all I listen to now is Miku and Luka anyway

 

Wait till we find out they're problematic too

 

I definitely still listen to As I Lay Dying

Now if it's something like Lostprophets...then yeah I won't get anywhere near that

 

I think following pop culture stuff shoots me in the foot cause if someone is really annoying it'll bleed into my enjoyment of them. Like if they're insufferable on Twitter and I hear their song come on its like shut uuuuup. Most of my reasons for disliking artists are stupid and trivial lol, aside from me just not liking their music too. Usually if I strongly dislike someone I dislike their music too. Altho I do hate Chris Brown and I begrudgingly like his music so there's that. I don't listen to it tho cause it makes me feel weird