Invasion of Ukraine • Page 51

You keep strawmanning me. I'll say it again: I do not agree with what Putin is doing in Ukraine. I think it's horrendous and that he should stand trial for war crimes. I agree that Putin has failed to prevent further NATO expansion. Neither NATO or Russia seems to want to negotiate at this stage. I don't really have anything else to add beyond what I've already said in previous posts.

NATO is not a defensive alliance. The intervention of British, French, and American armed forces into Libya in March 2011 was a NATO war for regime change and resources. Also the NATO war in Afghanistan led to the deaths of tens of thousands of Afghan civilians, the destruction of much of the countries infrastructure and the resurgence of the Taliban, the organisation the invasion was supposed to root out. Additionally, NATO played an important background role in the disastrous war on Iraq: A NATO training mission was set up in Iraq to help create efficient armed forces and NATO personnel were involved in a wide range of support and intelligence roles. The US/NATO has played a huge part in igniting tensions with Russia, it's hard to see how them provoking a war is an argument that they are necessary to prevent further conflict. The idea that NATO makes the world a safer place is absurd imo. Anyone who supports NATO while opposing Putin is a hypocrite, as NATO has also slaughtered and destroyed the lives of millions of people. Personally, I oppose both Putin and NATO.

 

Many governments in Europe are pro-US/pro-NATO. This isn't by accident - the US engineered coups and manufactured consent during the Cold War and beyond. Look up what happened in Italy, Greece, etc during this period. Google Operation Gladio and read the books "Killing Hope" by William Blum and "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein for more info. The history of this conflict did not begin with Putin's invasion.

That link you posted regarding China isn't very convincing if you've been paying attention at all to relations between the US and China over the last decade or so. Just because a some politicians say a couple of nice things in speeches doesn't really mean a whole lot.

Jenny Clegg from Stop the War: "NATO's expansion into the Asia Pacific is an attempt to divide and destabilise a region forecast to overtake Europe as the centre of the world economy by 2030. NATO serves as the nuclear-armed fortress that helps elevate the West above the 'Rest', anchoring Europe to its Western orientation, severed from its Eurasian geography. But NATO members are not only Atlantic, some are also Pacific powers. The US, Canada, as well as France and Britain, maintain possession of a few islands and some considerable maritime territory in the Pacific region. It is from this Pacific presence that the Asian NATO, as a counter to China, is growing."

 

First, you didn’t answer my question. Why are Finland and Sweden (who has over 200 years of neutrality and no interest in NATO) now believing NATO is good for them. I don’t care about he other nations. I want to know why these two countries are now deciding this. Could it possibly be because Russia has a credible threat to them if they do not join NATO? Clearly Russia causes both of those countries to believe NATO is necessary.

Also, you’re quite on the China article…“just because some politicians say some nice things in speeches”

The comments are from the Chinese State Councilor and Foreign Minister, dude. Perhaps read my articles first.

And the Jenny Clegg (who is a Xinjiang re-education camp apologist) quote is nonsense. China is the one destabilizing that region. Ask Japan, India, Vietnam, Philippines, and Taiwan. Four countries in that region who have either been threatened by China or have China push itself into their borders. It’s beyond ridiculous that China is the one pushing on walls but yet they are the “victim” once support comes to those they bully.

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

 

I don't disagree that Sweden and Finland are motivated to join NATO because of Putin's invasion of Ukraine. But Putin's invasion of Ukraine, while unjustified, was not unprovoked.

Big lol on your comments regarding China. I'm actually not sure how to respond if you think that actually means anything or signifies a change in relations between the West and China. You're talking absolute nonsense regarding China, go look up how the US is encircling China with military bases. I'm not surprised though if your only source of information is the Financial Times...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/surrounded-how-the-u-s-is-encircling-china-with-military-bases/

 

Your claim was that NATO is useless. It’s not and there are plenty of governing bodies that show for it.

And don’t tell me you’re a China-sympathizer.

It means a lot that China is

1 - pushing the Philippines inward and claiming the sea right next to them

2 - fighting with India because they continue to push for land that is within India’s borders

3 - Have made threats towards Vietnam with claims of Vietnam’s land

4 - Continue to make claims and threats over some of Japan’s islands

5 - Continue to issue forced invasion threats to Taiwan

All of the above countries are nervous of China. China is a wanna be imperialist nation but Asia is lucky China’s military is incompetent and that Xi has too much to lose.

America certainly has an interest in China not expanding, but so does every nation that shares that region with China.

And just like with NATO in Europe, those countries will prefer larger bodies help the big bully from busting down their door. If you have a problem with that then take it up with the bully.

 

I don't think NATO is useless. I'll quote Michael Parenti: "Do we still need NATO? Actually the US public never needed NATO. The Soviet Red Army had neither the interest nor the capacity to invade Western Europe after World War II; State Department studies have admitted as much. Does that mean NATO has been senseless or useless? Not at all; it is a valuable tool to lock the Western European countries into the US imperial system, just as it is now doing to the newly capitalized Eastern European countries."

I'm not sure why you are implying China is not imperialist, you are clearly ignoring it's neocolonial relationship with Africa. China has followed Western colonial logic to build its wealth. I don't support the Chinese government at all, I was just pointing out the undeniable aggression of the US/the West towards China. Of course it's nothing new if you are familiar with Chinese history. The US is the biggest bully in the world if you want to frame what we are discussing in such terms.

 

Just want to point out again that I never once accused you of being okay with or agreeing with what Putin/Russia is doing haha. I’m just saying that we don’t have to “poor Russia they were forced into this” simply because we don’t like what the US/NATO has done over the last few decades and beyond. Russia decided to invade a sovereign nation that was not joining NATO anytime soon, certainly not in Putin’s lifetime, for purely imperialistic reasons. The solution here shouldn’t be that Ukraine has to give up some land to them. I hate to go slippery slope but, if we start doing that because a madman is posturing about his nukes, then when does that end? Do we think Putin would be satisfied with stopping at Ukraine? What stops the next country run by a dictator with nukes from invading a neighbor and posturing with their nukes in order to get the rest of the world to concede that country to them? Etc.

 

I'm absolutely not sat here saying "Aww poor Russia"; I think the invasion was unjustified, but not unprovoked. This war was not inevitable, and more could have been done to avoid it. The approach of the US/NATO has instead been to do as much as possible to ignite tensions and conflict, in order to have Ukraine under its influence. I don't deny that Putin has his own imperial ambitions. I basically see this NATO-Russia proxy war as two groups of imperialists duking it out with Ukraine sadly caught in the middle.

 

Been crazy seeing all these clips on Instagram of these concripts from all over Russia basically being rounded up on busses and planes to get mobilized, most with shit uniforms and often pretty old munitions. And most of them appear from the bottom rungs of society too, who have no business being on a battlefield. Just going to get absolutely smashed on the frontlines, with no support from back home to show for it. Ukraine keeps blowing up/destroying Russia's truck and transport fleet, along with their ammunition dumps and command posts. Over time all these thousands of troops won't have ways to get around or supplies to keep them going for long

 

Well worded quote, but it doesn’t answer why Sweden and Finland see such value in NATO. Clearly there is a desire for support against Russia.

And I’m well aware of China’s history and its doings in Africa, but to say the US is being aggressive towards China without also mentioning how China IS a threat to peace in that region is leaving quite a bit out. I’d argue China is the biggest bully, especially if we start talking about its relations towards nations west of it and not just south/east Asia.

But this is the Ukraine thread and I don’t want to derail it anymore, so if you want to discuss we can over DM.

 

Anymore news on the "referendums" in the occupied Ukrainian regions?

 

I’ve been seeing cam videos of election people going into apartment buildings and going door to door with forms, with armed guards following them. I think it runs through next week, so by this time next week they should have “official” results published

 

I'm very curious to see how India and China feel about and react to Russia rushing to hold sham referenda in illegally annexed areas that they may have moved soldiers into but are nowhere near able to say they securely hold.

 

I know India for sure won’t recognize them, and I don’t think China will either. India actually just stopped buying Russian oil

 

Dmitry Bulgakov: Putin fires deputy defence chief amid supply failures

 

The Russian Nazi state

 

They're now considering martial law, and preventing all men of draft age from leaving the country; country is going off the rails more and more every day


https://ukrainetoday.org/2022/09/24...ng-men-of-draft-age-from-leaving-the-country/

 

This is fucking horrifying.

"The commission said that it found Russian forces forced family members to witness crimes committed against their loved ones. Those who experienced sexual or gender-based violence ranged in age from 4 to 82 years old, according to the update."

- quoted from an update from The Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine.

Update by the Chair of the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine, at the 51st session of the Human Rights Council

 

One thing I haven't really heard talked about: What is this war going to look like if major fighting is still going once winter hits?

 

Weird how "weakening Russia" is only causing them go from mere fascist tendencies to full-on fascist state. Not like that's ever happened in history before.

To be clear, I'm not saying that Russia taking land is ok or anything, but clearly we're heading towards something truly dangerous on a global scale, and tons of off ramps over last 30 years haven't even been tried. There's a decent chance that it may be too late to do anything now (I really thought there was a chance in April when Russia was so badly humiliated and knew that they had made a mistake, but Bucha plus Western interference killed any chance at that), but it would behoove the west to at least desperately try to find some kind of diplomatic solution here

 

I think a greater proportion of Russian troops will be without winter gear than the Ukrainians, so it'll going to be even more brutal on the front lines. I think we might see a greater use of tanks, and their ability to get through/over rough terrain; same with those tracked howitzers as well. Should be easier for drones to spot enemy vehicles and soldiers as well, because of the contrast between the dark green soldiers/equipment and surrounding snow

 

I saw an interview with a retired US general saying he doesn't expect the mobilization to have any effect on the ground until Spring. By that time the war could look completely different, depending on how winter goes.