Machine Gun Kelly - Tickets To My Downfall (September 25, 2020) Album • Page 22

I explained why multiple times, but let me lay it out in a different way that's more blunt: I've had this exact discussion before, you can read it in the accountability thread for every back and forth about the subjectiveness of what band gets "canceled" and what band doesn't. As for the moderation issues, many people have reached out to me privately to talk about them, as I requested, and I thank them, because to do so means I need to talk about extremely personal, extremely triggering, extremely traumatic things. And we've had good conversations. I've explained why I am not going to be part of that conversation in public, and I see no reason to have the exact same conversation we've already had, for another round. When new things come up, or there's new information or ideas, I'll chime in or talk with people I think I need to.

 

No, I read the the public voices and think about various things that could be potentially rolled into a policy or idea. Maybe there's a better way to talk to people than being a raging asshole.

 

I can't blame Jason or any of the other mods for not wanting to have the same public conversation I just did when my points were ignored/dismissed, users refused to be less hostile in the future despite causing people to leave the site, and then I was made fun of for needing to step away. I had a day-long conversation about why accountability is important and how this site could have more productive discussions about it in the future, all in good faith, just to be shut down. That makes it feel very clear that this group of users is more interested in talking down to others than improving the quality of discussion on the site or helping others grow.

 

Sorry but literally only the mods and people that have power on this site have been SPECIFICALLY “talking down” to anyone so come off it

 

I also think there's a difference between willfully ignoring allegations and attempting to parse through your feelings about how an artist with a history of abuse created something meaningful or special to you.

The bottom line is that any talk of someone like Jesse Lacey could trigger the survivor/a person who went through something similar to the survivors of Jesse's abuse.

At the same time, though, people can/have been triggered by posters immediately calling them (or another poster) out for saying something remotely innocuous about the band. Or, in the case of the 50 albums list, putting the artist on their list because of a deep emotional connection, rather than because of who Jesse is as a person. I don't think a survivor who has emotional ties to the band and copes with things by listening to them should feel threatened or bullied or attacked by someone who shames them for talking about the complex feelings they have about the band. I also don't think that they should be silenced when they want to talk about the pain of having to grapple with those emotions. And, intentionally or not, a lot of the blunt comments/"dunking", so to speak, are causing that to happen. Might not be directed at that specific person, but they read it and feel shame and anxiety. I don't know a better way of dealing with it than nuanced discussion. I know for a fact there were people who wanted to talk about what Brand New meant to them in the context of coping and dealing with mental health/triggering situations etc. but were silenced because of how quickly the conversation in there turned curt and ugly. I think that discussion would have been more powerful than simply saying "no Brand New on lists".

I did not put Brand New on my list because I can't really separate what Jesse did with the music. I'm also not really going to shame anyone who did, especially if it's a person who I know does not support him. I also don't think that allowing a problematic artist to be on a list of influential/important albums is the same as this site condoning abusers.

 

And yet many people are able to talk to me about these things without needing to try and "dunk" on me, or the moderators, while doing so. Many are capable of having these conversations without the hostility you bring immediately. I don't refuse to talk to anyone, the only thing I've refused to do to publicly engage in conversations that will display a trauma when I don't feel comfortable doing so.

 

I'm gonna quote this again in case it gets lost in this discussion and then bail out. PMs are open.

 

i never “argued” that. I only mentioned that the music was why I originally joined the thread. Don’t put words in my mouth.

 

I guess, the thread would be closed and have either a badge or make the first and last posts of the thread a link to the accountability thread so discussion can be filtered there, right. Like some of the people in here if the thread was closed and they couldn't post "enjoying this album!" or whatever and instead saw links to the accountability thread and went and checked it out probably wouldn't engage in that thread since it's not specifically for MGK and would hopefully do more reading and take that information and do with it what they will. Which, imo, is more beneficial to everyone. That person gets to digest the information and determine how it impacts their views and listening habits, and the "clique" or whover don't have to come into threads or engage in increasingly more hostile conversations in the accoutability thread. I mean, I would hope and that would be my assumption on how it would play out, but we'd have to at least get something in place by the Moderation team to see and maybe it works and maybe it doesn't, but let's give something, anything, a shot.

 

Yeah I think it’s safe to say there’s a problem here that is beyond repair.

 

i wish i had as much time as you do to dissect a thread post by post and page by page.

 

i still keep coming back to not being able to wrap my head around how we even want to have "productive conversations" about a guy who has posted pedophilia-related tweets, and then doubled down on them in interviews. surely not every situation on this website is the same, and in a lot of other circumstances there is probably room for a discussion, but guys this is NOT it. every trace of this guy should have been scrubbed from the website as soon as that shit came out. to see those tweets posted in here, and on the same page read posts praising his music is absolutely vomit inducing. if pedophilia-adjacent behavior is not the line for this forum, honestly what is?

 

I like it. Now, close it as soon as the allegations come out or close it after a brief period of discussion where people can parse out their feelings or be like "Hey fuck this person!"?

It also isn't going to stop the TSSF thread from being a mess, for instance, because I will continue to interrupt it on a regular basis.

edited because that last sentence was illegible lol.

 

To be clear, my posts aren't in reference to MGK/this thread. I don't really think I've seen any attempt at nuance aside from that weird pedophile convo.

 

well at least you admit you put words in my mouth. As far as the other post, i know it’s not the ideal way, but i was actually agreeing with your side of the issue.

 

that’s not very Pierre Bouvier of you

 

Whats the reference?

 

You really are making the argument that no one should write about, or talk about, working through pain and how that intersects with their memories and who they are? We fundamentally disagree, so, cool, I'll fuck off.

 

.

 

Hey, you little piss baby
You think you're so fucking cool? Huh?
You think you're so fucking tough?
You talk a lotta big game for someone with such a small truck

 

I don’t see how that section article was about Jason’s complicated feelings when eighty percent of it was him acting as if nothing ever happened and seemed to celebrate the memory of such a big event for the site. You could have chose other stories to include that didn’t trigger people. Plain and simple. No need to use a cop out excuse that isn’t really valid.

 

It's part of a series that's now over 40k words, that you keep refusing to acknowledge that and what's linked directly in the article, is why I find this entire thing extremely disingenuous.

Some snippets:

One of the hardest things for me over the past few years has been coming to terms with how many of my memories are directly associated with this band. I’ve written before about how much I tied myself to the music, but beyond that, there are so many memories wrapped around little things and the website’s history. I can’t pull that apart; they remain intertwined.

This is something I’ve been struggling with for almost three years. Something I struggled with all week when I knew heading back to 2006 was on the horizon. Something I’ve struggled with since the first accusations against Jesse Lacey came to light, and I wrote my first thoughts the day after. I sit here now, no better prepared to talk about how I feel. I’ve probably written a dozen drafts over the past three years trying to put to words what’s inside of me, and I fail every single time. So, all I can say is what’s true for me here today. That album, The Devil and God…, was exceptionally important to me not only in 2006 but for almost 14 years after as well. There is no denying that it is a part of my past, and part of me in that rare way some albums feel tattooed to your soul. But we get to choose who we are in the present, and I choose not to have it be part of mine. Over the past three years, I have spoken to multiple people hurt by this band. To people that, as recent as a few months ago, were still being harassed by their fans for coming forward with what happened to them. I cannot even start to move to a phase where I can think of anything else while that is still happening, while the silence and lack of support for these brave women is still leading to their harassment. I know what my past holds, I have no idea what the future will bring, but I know how I feel right now in the present and how wrong I would feel to praise, elevate, or lift up that album, no matter how influential it was to me, or the music scene as a whole.

As I've written about multiple times before, it's impossible for me to tell my musical journey, and the journey of this website, without mentioning Brand New. Their impact on my life, my musical taste, and in many ways how I listen to music and what I am interested in, is incalculable. They were my favorite band, and yet here today, even thinking about them breaks my heart. With that said, Deja Entendu was the most important album in my life. It's an album that I would forever change how I would judge all other music. It would become the standard by which every other band I listened to would be compared, from sound to emotional resonance, to scene impact. It's an album I've listened to more than any other. When I was happy; when I was devastatingly sad. It was the album I listened to when relationships crumbled, and when I lost my cousin. And it was the album I turned to on a random weekend night laying in the grass contemplating life. It was forever my go-to "favorite album." Directly said, there is no other album that has ever felt as stitched to my soul. It was also incredibly influential in our music scene. This dramatic change in style would be attempted, often with disastrous results, by many bands to come.

Over the past three years, I've scrolled past the album in my Apple Music account many times, and even seeing the artwork pulls memories from my skin. But I've yet to hit play. These memories hurt. I still can't even articulate quite why, or how, or what I even want to do with them when they come rushing through my brain. I keep typing, hoping one day the right words will come. They don't. But I can't talk about 2003 without saying that this album's imprint on me, and on our musical world, was undeniable.

 

Sorry but I didn’t read your entire series. Maybe you shouldn’t have assumed that everyone reads every single article you post on the site.

 

Very mature.

 

God you people need to learn what good faith actually fucking means