Machine Gun Kelly - Tickets To My Downfall (September 25, 2020) Album • Page 18

I'm not even talking about MGK! Or you! I'm trying to have a bigger conversation about how we can discuss accountability and problematic artists in the future without devolving into personal attacks, because by all means, it's something we should be able to do!

And if you you want to talk about treating people callously and flippantly, we can talk about the PMs I'm receiving right now about how the aggression has pushed users away from even attempting to discuss accountability in the first place!

 

Anyway, back on topic, yeah this 100%

 

It’s weird to single out how one person has responded in accountability talks when so, so many others have engaged in conversations deemed “not combative”, and yet we’re still seeing the same things happen over and over. People try and try to make others aware of situations, only to be met with ignorance and saying how great the music is. It gets extremely frustrating, and is a clear reason people get upset and react the way they do.

I just don’t see why it’s so hard to listen, take a step back, realize this isn’t someone who deserves your public support, and think the music scene would be better without throwing support behind an artist that is so undeserving of it. It’s been said time and time again, what you listen to in your own space and time is your business. It has always been an issue of supporting the artist in public forums, financially, etc.

 

Ngl, not really following your logic here. So you’re saying you don’t really care if the posts are being made, as long as you can dictate whether or not you see them? And you’re arguing that your concern revolves around the money paid to keep the site running?

Like, idk man. Blocking threads accomplishes basically everything it sounds like you want, AND allows for each individual poster to draw their own line about which artists they want to post or read about. Not you, me, or any mod should be able to define that for anyone else.

 

great post

 

^^this

 

The only reason I quoted Anthony was because he was already a part of this conversation, and while I thoroughly understand the frustration that comes with others ignoring something you care passionately about, something extremely valid and important to talk about, to pretend that the aggressive behavior that comes without giving someone the chance to learn isn't an ongoing part of the problem is being willfully ignorant.

I've made two posts now explaining why that is the case, why some people are afraid to enter accountability discussions, and why this clique behavior is detrimental to what should be the end goal of helping users to grow and to better understand accountability. If no one wants to respond to those, or the fact that many POC and LGBTQ voices folks claim to be standing up for have left due to aggressive behaviors of certain users time and time again, I don't have anything more to say. I have been in this thread all day listening and trying to build solutions with users in good faith. If you claim to care about accountability, but refuse to listen when marginalized voices are leaving due to your behavior, it may be time to think about what that says about you.

 

If not wanting to support shitty artists is a clique, count me in

 

I’m gonna mention it again, as I have for the last few years now, that it is incredibly disheartening that the same instances of abuse, harassment, racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and the almost endless list of harm done by people in positions of power continue to use it to cause irreparable harm at all levels of the music industry. And it’s disheartening that even in our own little corner of the internet that these conversations happen the exact same way, over and over and over and over again. And it’s really frustrating that this site and its moderators seemingly handle these threads the exact same way in November 2017 as they do almost three years later in October 2020. If the moderator team is frustrated and exhausted from having to come in and moderate a thread when these situations happen regularly, maybe it’s time to implement some sort of procedure. It doesn’t have to be perfect and it doesn’t have to be set in stone, but clearly the “wait until the thread gets out of hand” approach isn’t working after a 3 year trial. And we get it! These threads are messy and these conversations get emotional and hostile by the time the mods come in here. It’s not an easy thing we’re asking for, but it’s something that is by now necessary.

We think something needs to be done in these threads when allegations come out. Write something up, pitch it to users for input, try it out, and then after each case let’s see what works and didn’t work. If the first try is posting a sticky at the top with a link to the post containing the article or tweets about the allegations and it doesn’t work, maybe try closing the thread and pointing the thread link to a post in the accountability threads. If that doesn’t work maybe somewhere between or something new. We’re a community, we can talk about it. It won’t be an easy conversation, but it’s something that needs to be tried at least. But, it doesn’t do any good to come in here when it’s too late trying to clean up these threads after the fact. It doesn’t work. It hasn’t for three years now. It’s gonna happen again in a few months, we’re gonna have the same thing happen in another thread exactly like what happened in here.

Are people aggressive or brigade a thread? yeah after a certain point. Are they initially? Not that I’ve ever seen. @Anthony_ ’s first few posts in here were satirical. He wasn’t even attacking anyone or being aggressive. Confrontational after a lot of bad posts were sent his way, yeah. But, when you have posters, some of them regulars, trying to sweep over the conversation or are telling him to just block the thread, i think confrontation is good and necessary. We should confront people that want to publicly support an abuser or someone, in this case, sexualizing minors and more.

There are plenty of places on the internet where they can have those conversations with others who also don’t care about those allegations, it bothers a lot of us that this forum continues to be one of those places.

 

That is an excellent post that puts things a lot more eloquently than I ever could haha

 

idk about this, all of the lgbtq users I know who have left did so because they were not feeling heard or respected by staff/mods

 

@Aaron Mook just gonna piggyback off this and say it’s kind of deranged to even throw that in anyone’s face when the event that turned this thread to shit was *checks notes* banning an lgbtq voice. furthermore, there were women in this exact thread saying they were uncomfortable with the way this situation was being treated but their posts were ignored. So maybe take a good hard look at your own words here

 

Thanks dadbolt. Great post.

 

Once again, it's being twisted that Jake W was banned for something he posted (a decision I didn't even make!) and not for breaking a forum rule. Very cool and normal to get called deranged for trying to have a conversation and solve a problem. If you don't want to believe the hostility is part of the problem, or that there are marginalized voices that have left because of it, I don't have anything else to say. This site will not get better until we are all willing to take steps to make it so.

edit: yep, bowing out. thanks for listening I guess.

 

but what steps are the literal people in charge taking? it just kind of seems like every time one of these situations comes around, the thread gets out of hand and the mods come running in yelling "what are we supposed to do???". if the burden is on the users to police threads for apologists and supporters of abusers, then this is exactly how it's going to go every single time. i do not feel sorry or apologetic for being aggressive towards someone who wants to support abusers let ALONE a pedophile. it's just not something i'll ever tolerate.

also i'm tired of being told that 'countless people' are coming to the mods in private saying how uncomfortable they feel bringing up accountability. there are literal accountability threads in every forum

Accountability in Music • forum.chorus.fm

Accountability in Entertainment • forum.chorus.fm

there was a sports one but i guess it's gone.

If you have questions about accountability, take it there, there are very well versed and supportive active members in each of those specific threads, yes the conversation can at times get heated but if you want to learn or question your stance on something, that's the place for it. when i hear that people are running to mods in private afraid that their opinions will get them yelled at, my instinct is that their opinion is shitty and they already know it.

this discussion/debate does seem to have reached its end, but it's only going to be a matter of weeks until another artist ends up shitty and we get back into it again.

 

This is absolutely not true and honestly the reason why there are people reaching out to me through PM on a regular basis. It kinda proves the point that Aaron expressed.

I've gotten into it about this situation before. I don't wish to engage in this discussion with this group any further, but know that you are wrong about that. Know that there are plenty of good people out there who are reaching out because they are confused or upset or feel threatened over how a lot of the posters on this site handle things.

I don't need/want a response, just know that this is incorrect.



edited because that entire situation was way too triggering for me to talk about and I don't feel like opening that wound anymore.

 

.

 

Attempting to twist what I said, and have since edited out because of my own mental health, into that is pretty fucked up. Especially if you have no context for what I'm referring to. I'll ask you to delete that post

 

maybe know that there are plenty of good people that have left this site because of how these situations are continuously handled. There's a reason a lot of POC/LGBTQ+/Women don't post on here/post less often on here now, and this thread has been a shining example of that.

 

I don't disagree with this either. I know for a fact that this is the case.

 

I've deleted it because you have deleted yours. I honestly have no idea what you meant by it being fucked up, I was merely stating that discussing someone else's mental health may not be a good idea. There was no malice and no accusations. I certainly didn't think you were using it as a stick to beat him with or anything, far from it. Sorry if it came across that way, but it was the furthest thing from my mind.

 

So... now what? Is that it?

edit: I just want to know if something will come out of this. Suggestions made by a few of us could be tried.

 

Blocking Anthony yesterday was one of the best decisions I've ever made on here. I hope someday he realizes that his attitude is actually part of the problem and is in no way the solution.

 

I am not discussing their mental health. I don't know about their mental health. I stated explicitly what happened to me for interacting with that poster.