Bad opinions • Page 109

Yeah exactly. People throw blanket reads on the genre, but there's a fair amount of variety. Not that much in common between Rush and the English-folk infused brand of prog Tull was doing, etc.

 

Funny how that's what I grew up listening to as a kid because of my parents, and in the background of making fun of their music, I ended up knowing all the songs subconsciously...now I love them all.

 

The problem is the debate about the supposed misogyny on that album is actually really complex. There's a tonne of issues to do with sexism, language, authorial intent etc that it's quite difficult to have a discussion without people resorting to angry dismissals. That's understandable - I don't really want to debate it over the internet either.

What pisses me off is when people just dismiss it as a record, as if there's no value in it. That's bullshit. The intensity is insane, the musicianship is brilliant, the vocal performance is outstanding. You can say "I find the lyrics hard to listen to for various reasons". I totally understand that. It's when people act as if it's just pile of shit because "ew the words". I can't stand that.

 

Is an album/song being "intense" good when the intensity comes in the form of extreme misogyny?

 

Hah yeah. I've taken a ton of what I like from other people. Mom, dad, best friend, girls I've wanted to impress. And then after I listen to all the stuff they like, I go even further into those styles.

 

And this is why we can't have a discussion on it because that's not at all what I said (and you're wrong anyway).

 

Can a record be valuable if it is packed with nazi beliefs in the lyrics?

 

I'm wrong about what? I was asking a question. The lyrics are hateful towards women, you can't really debate that. You're saying that the intensity of the music is what makes it valuable. There are some people who can put aside shitty lyrics/shitty actions of an artist and appreciate the music, but you seem to say that the "intensity" of the music, which I assume is directly related to the lyrics/delivery of the lyrics, is what makes it good. I find that kind've hard to separate.

 

Yes. Triumph of the Will is one of the most important, influential and groundbreaking films ever made and that is literal Nazi propaganda.

 

The misogyny in that album isn't "supposed," it's very real, and that's the crux of the issue I was trying to point out. Many people use the argument you just did that it's "complex" or he was only talking about one specific girl, so it's not really sexist/misogynistic. I really think something you should understand is that your ability to dismiss those things in order to listen to those albums has a lot to do with the fact that you don't have to experience that stuff personally on a daily basis. Its not an attack on you personally, this is just something I feel is easy to miss or misinterpret when you aren't effected directly.

For some background, I'm a transgender woman. When I first got into that album I had not yet realized I was trans and was living my life as a "teenage boy" (to put it simply or whatever, it's more complicated and abstract than that to me). I had just gone through a breakup under some pretty shitty circumstances, and that album, for better or for worse, helped me through it. I was too young and dumb to care about the lyrical content for a while, and when I did start to care I still tried to set that stuff aside and just pay attention to the exact elements you described: the musicianship, the intensity of the performance. For a while that was fine but, especially now after beginning to live my life openly as a woman and experiencing/feeling the impact of misogyny and sexism in a way that I never really had to, I'm not able to really do that anymore. I honestly feel kind of ashamed that I was ever able to enjoy that record so much, to be entirely honest, and I'm glad I've grown as a person in that regard. I really don't think people refusing or just being unable to see the merit in that album is nearly as offensive as the content that is found on it or, for that matter, the dismissal of the very real misogyny and the very real feelings that brings up and actual abuse it could trigger memories of for some people.

This is really something I think about a lot whenever people discuss matters like this, and the separation of art and artist as well. I think a person's ability to do so is often heavily dependent on how much they're personally effected by the actions, beliefs, or words of the artist in question. I think it's important to recognize that and not enough people really do. It's why I get really upset when I see friends of mine posting about Whirr or Nothing, for example, they don't have to feel the impact of the things they've said and done. It genuinely bothers me to know that people can support that stuff so easily.

 

I posed the debate with Birth of a Nation as well, how does one speak about such a film? Obviously film and music are drastically different types of media in terms of analysis, but still.

 

black metal wouldnt exist without those kinds of records

 

the good thing about bm tho is that there was a far left reaction to the initial fascist/nationalist wave that birthed the genre and these days the most prominent bm bands move to the left

 

I think you can appreciate the technical beauty while still decrying the horrible message/lyrics. I'm not trying to put Glassjaw on a pedestal, as I think yhat album is fairly average, but I think it's perfectly okay to say that the lyrics are reprehensible, but the album itself has merit. Plenty of hip hop and pop punks albums have sexist leanings, some more blatant than others, and I can still enjoy them. There's more to art than the message, I think.

 

i feel the same, and i also think the glassjaw album falters beyond just the lyrics.


i think it says something about the band and daryl that they were able to mature greatly with the next album and even reflect and denounce himself through the lyrics he wrote for the follow up

 

something could have been influential in the past and we can still look at it today and say "ok, this was obviously successful and made by someone who was talented. however, it was explicitly made to endorse horrendous, objectively horrible ideology, and therefore it's value is at best contentious and at worst non existent."

 

influence is valuable in my eyes idk

 

Yeah, obviously, but the dude was debating the reprehensibility of the lyrics and saying that its "intensity" was the high point of the record, which I am questioning

 

I still listen to Van Halen in spite of their misogyny, I think it's a matter of personal taste

 

i didnt say it wasnt

 

Guys, I can't respond to all this without a) getting into a proper debate about the lyrics on that album, something I expressly wanted to avoid, and b) going wildly off the thread topic.

We can talk over PMs if you want.

I will say that:
1) I'm not 'dismissing' sexism AT ALL.
2) When I said "supposed" misogyny, I wasn't actually denying that there were any misogynist lyrics on that record. I used "supposed" as a point of being neutral. I probably could have used the word "alleged" instead but that's what I meant.
3) I do think there's a lot of complexity in this specific discussion - I mean even the argument "he was directing it at one girl" inevitably evolves into discussions about authorial intent and the 'intentional fallacy'.

 

well you hinted it may be non existent i was just disagreeing with that

 

well the thing with that last point, which comes up a lot, is that directing that kind of language of violence to "one girl" is still misogynist

 

i think there is a point where it is probably worthwhile to wonder whether art's negative impact outweighs the positive.

 

oh absolutely and any time those kinds of albums come up these conversations happen and i think its a very good thing that they do